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  • Weapons used on Mary?

    I was told recently that a meat clever was found at the scene of Mary's murder, and was much later confirmed to have been used on her. Struggling to find any confirmation of this. Can anyone confirm or refute this please?

  • #2
    A press report from 1891 said that the axe on display at the Black Museum belonged to MJK's killer, but it was actually used by Henry Wainwright to murder his mistress in 1874. I believe that's what you're referring to.

    Incidentally, Nick Warren, editor of Ripperana magazine and a surgeon, detected the use of a hatchet to split MJK's left thighbone.

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    • #3
      Incidentally, Nick Warren, editor of Ripperana magazine and a surgeon, detected the use of a hatchet to split MJK's left thighbone.

      Wouldn't most working class homes have a small axe in the house to chop firewood for the fire?

      In the Glasgow tenement where I grew up, we certainly had a small axe which was used to chop those larger pieces of firewood into smaller pieces.

      Does anyone know whether in fact this would be the case in whitechapel of the 1880's?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by barnflatwyngarde View Post
        Incidentally, Nick Warren, editor of Ripperana magazine and a surgeon, detected the use of a hatchet to split MJK's left thighbone.
        Except MJK's left thighbone wasn't split, nor was the other one for that matter. It's a modern myth based on a misinterpretation of the MJK3 photograph.
        Last edited by Sam Flynn; 08-19-2017, 09:47 AM.
        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm always visually confused by this, Kelly's left calf in MJK2, and I wonder if anyone has an opinion:

          Click image for larger version

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          Bond tells us:
          The left calf showed a long gash through skin & tissues to the deep muscles & reaching from the knee to 5 ins above the ankle.
          So is that what we're seeing in the photo? I used to think that part of the bedsheet had been pulled over her calf, because in terms of tone and texture the area above the jagged edge of skin looks contiguous with the bedsheet.

          Am I right in assuming that real situation is as depicted below? And that the area coloured green represents exposed tissue? If so, why is it not darker? The exposed tissue everywhere else on the photo is considerably darker. Can anyone help explain what we're seeing?

          Click image for larger version

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Henry Flower View Post
            I'm always visually confused by this, Kelly's left calf in MJK2
            Actually, Henry, that's her calf and knee. It's her kneecap at extreme right.
            Am I right in assuming that.. the area coloured green represents exposed tissue?
            The bit shaded in green is a part of the wrinkled bedsheet, Henry.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              Actually, Henry, that's her calf and knee. It's her kneecap at extreme right.
              Yes, I didn't mention the knee, but my assumption is that the knee is usually to be found somewhere just north of the calf.

              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              The bit shaded in green is a part of the wrinkled bedsheet, Henry.
              Now that's exactly what I'd always thought, Sam, but that leaves me wondering what the hell is going on with her calf? Are you saying that the long gash just removed the tissue that should be there? If that's just rumpled bedsheet (and it sure looks like it) then where is her gastrocnemius muscle?

              And no blood at all?

              (I'm starting to sound like one of those conspiracy kooks who think it's a waxwork, mentioning no names...)

              That's weird.

              Visually weird.

              Is this the consensus view?

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              • #8
                I can see that the photo across the pelvis to the bedside table does seem to suggest excision of that tissue, not merely a 'gash' - if only it included just a little more.

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                • #9
                  Hi All,

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Regards,

                  Simon

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                    Hi All,

                    [ATTACH]18260[/ATTACH]

                    Regards,

                    Simon
                    Very nice, Simon, thank you sir.

                    I wondered if I might tempt you out to play!

                    Hope you're very well.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Henry Flower View Post
                      Yes, I didn't mention the knee, but my assumption is that the knee is usually to be found somewhere just north of the calf.
                      It is, Henry. I mean, the knee is in the photograph to the north of the calf, too. Both legs are flexed at an angle, with the left knee pointing directly at us, and the left thigh "eclipsed" behind the kneecap; the calf continues from the kneecap to the ankle, although a ruck of bed-linen hides part of the outer edge of the left calf and shin, which lie more-or-less flush on the bed.

                      Apologies for the really poor quality of this stick-man graphic; it's a rush-job, but it might help visualise what we're looking at:

                      Click image for larger version

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                      "The legs were wide apart, the left thigh at right angles to the trunk & the right forming an obtuse angle with the pubes." (Dr Bond's autopsy notes)
                      Last edited by Sam Flynn; 08-19-2017, 10:38 AM.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                        Hi All,

                        [ATTACH]18260[/ATTACH]

                        Regards,

                        Simon
                        Thanks Simon. That's an exposed thigh-bone, as described in Dr Bond's notes: "the right thigh was denuded in front to the bone". It's not a vertically split femur, which is the non-existent mystery which the axe/cleaver suggestion aimed to "solve". There was no vertically split femur.
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Henry,

                          Yes, fine thank you, now back from seven weeks physical therapy. I can now walk and talk at the same time.

                          What we're looking at is a re-creation of the Kelly murder scene.

                          I would direct your attention to the right knee and thigh.

                          Regards,

                          Simon

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks Gareth, it's my fault - I think I'm not making myself clear, not expressing myself very well. I understand the viewpoint, the position of the body, and the basic layout of what we're seeing. The only thing that is puzzling me is the jagged line denoting the edge of the gash wound to Mary's left calf. It extends, as Bond stated, from just below the knee to about 5 inches above the ankle.

                            What has confused me is that what we are both taking to be rumpled bedsheets seem to show (coincidentally) a line that could well be precisely where we would expect to see the line of the inner edge of her calf. (I have darkened it with dashes in the image below). But if it's just bedsheet then I'm puzzled by what we do see of her calf. Bond describes it merely as a gash, but in fact it appears that muscles have been denuded to the bone, or else - we would see them.

                            I hope the green makes it more clear. It's just very, very strange. From the angle of the camera we should surely see some tissue, some muscle, something. It's like it just..... stops. It reaches the jagged edge and stops. As though the leg had been hollow. Anyone else find this strange?

                            Click image for larger version

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                            • #15
                              Hello Henry

                              I agree with you about the inner edge of the calf; I suspect that the gash Dr Bond referred to cut her calf muscle so severely that it's flopped out of view, causing the "hollow" where the body of the calf muscle used to be. A deep gash extending from just below the knee to 5 inches above the ankle would damage the most bulky part of the calf muscle, i.e. the very part you've shown by the dotted line.

                              Edit: I'd also point out that the line of the inner calf, as we look at it, appears to be rather "scalloped" or jagged, oddly enough from a point just below the left knee to about 5 inches above the ankle. Above and below this jagged line (shown in red below), the outline of the skin is smooth and continuous.

                              Click image for larger version

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                              I think we're looking at the location of the gash described by Dr Bond, behind which the damaged calf muscle itself is lying out of sight.
                              Last edited by Sam Flynn; 08-19-2017, 11:30 AM.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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