Why is There Little Interest in the Nichols Murder?

[Dave James]

Hi Dave,

I'm afraid that Chapman did indeed die during the inquest into Nichols, so it was the murder of Chapman that urged the doctors to re-examine Nichols.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom
Thanks for your reply.
The point that I'm trying to make is that if Polly were buried on the 6th Sept and Chapman was murdered on the 8th Sept (during the period of the inquest), how and when was the examination carried out? Was Polly exhumed? I don't think that I've ever seen any reference to this happening.
I can understand a request for a further examination in light of the injuries to Chapman, and the possibility it was done by the same person, but under the circumstances, when was the request made?

All the best
Dave

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Dave,

I'm afraid that Chapman did indeed die during the inquest into Nichols, so it was the murder of Chapman that urged the doctors to re-examine Nichols.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Dave James]

Hello Dave,

I believe the session you refer to was after the Chapman murder and since her uterus was taken from her and the 2 murders were related, the coroner wanted Llewellyn to verify that it hadn't happened to Nichols.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

Thanks for the reply, but...
I found this in one of the dissertations
Mary Nichols was buried on 6 September, two days before the murder of Annie Chapman, so he must have re-examined Nichols's corpse before 6 September, and for some reason other than to establish, in the light of Chapman's murder, whether any organs were missing. On the basis of our interpretation of the wounds inflicted, it seems unlikely that any organs had been removed from Nichols's body, but there is no way of knowing for sure if Llewellyn did undertake a comprehensive necropsy, and there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that he did.
The Victorian Medico-Legal Autopsy Part II: The Whitechapel Murders -Autopsies and SurgeonsBy KARYO MAGELLAN

It does raise a question as to why the examination was carried out.

All the best
Dave

These street prostitutes usually serviced their costomers from behind rather than from the front as this was less awkward.

A Famous myth Hunter. The method most often used by these women was to grasp the skirts and raise them, facing the client, with her back to a fence or wall. Most Dollymops being loathe to turn their backs on men who were often violent towards them. Girls who had a Bully could afford to be less careful, but not the likes of Polly Nichols. It has also been suggested that most of these women favoured anal sex, a theory demolished by the almost epidemic presence of venereal disease in London.

A Famous myth Hunter. The method most often used by these women was to grasp the skirts and raise them, facing the client, with her back to a fence or wall. Most Dollymops being loathe to turn their backs on men who were often violent towards them. Girls who had a Bully could afford to be less careful, but not the likes of Polly Nichols. It has also been suggested that most of these women favoured anal sex, a theory demolished by the almost epidemic presence of venereal disease in London.

…

I must admit that my source for the behaviour of street prostitutes was an obscure book ( the title escapes me at this moment) that I checked out long ago from my local library on Victorian prostitution. … The other sources are what's found in Victorian studies in other print and on the internet- and they are rather vague on the actual practices of what was coined in the earlier 19th century as "Dollymops".

Any author or supposed 'historian' claiming such knowledge, …

"These street prostitutes usually serviced their costomers from behind rather than from the front …"

"The method most often used by these women was to grasp the skirts and raise them, facing the client, with her back to a fence or wall."

… is a merchant of unadulterated bullshit!

By whom; and by what means would such 'intelligence' have been gathered, … in the Victorian era?

Any further information on the proclivities of street prostitutes would be greatly appreciated.

There isn't any!

We also presume to know what sort of prices these women 'typically' charged for their 'services'. But in reality, … we do not!

[Barnaby]

Thanks to everyone for commenting on my thread. A nice discussion of an under discussed Ripper victim. And a convincing argument to engage in first-hand research and not just to believe everything you read in books (errr.. or see on the internet!)

[Hunter]

Hello Dave,

I believe the session you refer to was after the Chapman murder and since her uterus was taken from her and the 2 murders were related, the coroner wanted Llewellyn to verify that it hadn't happened to Nichols.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[Dave James]

Can any one clarify

Hi All,
I've been going through various newpaper reports on Nichols and came across an almost throw away remark in one of them.

I think it was the third session where LLewellyn was recalled and said that he had re examined the body and that no organs were missing.

I'm pretty sure it was before the Chapman murder.

Any ideas why at this point he would be checking on this?

I'll find the reference and post ASAP

ust found the reference (The Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, September 18, 1888, Page 2)
Dr. Llewellyn, recalled, said he had re-examined the body and there was no part of the viscera missing.

All the best
Dave

[Tom_Wescott]

No, you want her on top. That way she has two free hands to hold your beer and your sandwich and you don't have to worry about her spilling anything. Just put tape over her eyes, cuz Lord knows it's no fun to be stared at while you eat.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Sox seems to have pulled us off-topic with his rousing sex talk.

[Hunter]

I think what Sox is trying to say is that when researching prostitutes, it's not good enough to just read a book...you've gotta get out there and do your research first hand. Sure, it ain't cheap, but truth never is. Rock on, Sox!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Ah, yes, first hand research. Well, I found that being serviced from behind gives you someplace to set your beer.

Cheers,
Hunter

[Tom_Wescott]

I think what Sox is trying to say is that when researching prostitutes, it's not good enough to just read a book...you've gotta get out there and do your research first hand. Sure, it ain't cheap, but truth never is. Rock on, Sox!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Prostitution

A Famous myth Hunter. The method most often used by these women was to grasp the skirts and raise them, facing the client, with her back to a fence or wall. Most Dollymops being loathe to turn their backs on men who were often violent towards them. Girls who had a Bully could afford to be less careful, but not the likes of Polly Nichols. It has also been suggested that most of these women favoured anal sex, a theory demolished by the almost epidemic presence of venereal disease in London.

Hi Sox,

I must admit that my source for the behaviour of street prostitutes was an obscure book ( the title escapes me at this moment) that I checked out long ago from my local library on Victorian prostitution. My only reason for reading it was its mention of the Ripper murders. The other sources are what's found in Victorian studies in other print and on the internet- and they are rather vague on the actual practices of what was coined in the earlier 19th century as "Dollymops".

I do feel that this is a subject that is little discussed, though pertinent to the overall understanding of the Whitechapel murders. Any further information on the proclivities of street prostitutes would be greatly appreciated.

In closing, I would say that I agree that anal sex by prostitutes was unlikely for the reasons you have stated and the cultural stigma that was attached to it.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[ianincleveland]

Hmmm, I'm not so sure. It is interesting, but I have my doubts. While it is true that the killer may not have had much blood on himself, his hands may have very well been blood stained and, if I was the killer, I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself by going to someone to tell them about the murder. I would just get as far away as possible and not look back.

Ive wondered did JTR have gloves to put on after a killing so his bloodstained hands werent visible???

[Sox]

These street prostitutes usually serviced their costomers from behind rather than from the front as this was less awkward.

A Famous myth Hunter. The method most often used by these women was to grasp the skirts and raise them, facing the client, with her back to a fence or wall. Most Dollymops being loathe to turn their backs on men who were often violent towards them. Girls who had a Bully could afford to be less careful, but not the likes of Polly Nichols. It has also been suggested that most of these women favoured anal sex, a theory demolished by the almost epidemic presence of venereal disease in London.

[corey123]

Impossible, imo. It couldn't have been kept secret by the numerous police and official reports.

Amitiés,
David

Nichols injuries have always confused me. I wish they had a very detailed account of her injuries. In Don Rumbelows book he notes that there were two stab wounds near the vagina, but we have no record of them.

I dont have the post mortem examination report with me so I may be off my facts.

Edit: Here are those facts.
In a detailed summary report, dated 19 October 1888, Chief Inspector Swanson wrote: "Dr. Llewellyn of 152 Whitechapel Road was sent for, he pronounced life extinct and he describes the wounds as, - throat cut nearly severing head from body, abdomen cut open from centre of bottom of ribs along right side, under pelvis to left of stomach, there the wound was jagged: the coating of the stomach was cut in several places and two small stabs on private parts,..."

Yours truly

[Observer]

Hmmm, I'm not so sure. It is interesting, but I have my doubts. While it is true that the killer may not have had much blood on himself, his hands may have very well been blood stained and, if I was the killer, I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself by going to someone to tell them about the murder. I would just get as far away as possible and not look back.

Hmmmmm...interesting

all the best

Observer