Why is There Little Interest in the Nichols Murder?

[Colin Roberts]

Colin
With reference to the twists and turns referred to by Robert Linford on the other site:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ycle-spokes.do

Thanks, Lechmere!

Quite tragic, indeed!

~~~

Now, the 'ten-thousand-dollar' questions:

Are you compiling some sort of formal presentation, such as a magazine article, or perhaps even a book, regarding Charles Allen Lechmere?

Are you in contact with any of the Lechmere's in East London?

If so, are they aware of the 'accepted' role that was played, by their predecessor, in the mystery of 'Jack the Ripper'?

If the answers to these questions are 'confidential', so to speak, I will certainly understand.

[Lechmere]

I hope I don't come across of being 'confident' he did it!
It is fairly easy to give Cross opportunity for Stride and Eddowes.
He could have been visiting his mother and daughter on the Saturday night after work.
On his way home he found Stride, got disturbed and wanted more.
He went away from his home direction to find another. He actually would have been following his old route to work before he moved to Doveton Street a few months before.
Found Eddowes and left the apron and graffiti on his direct route home.

Kelly was quite close to his work place.

I see Mckenzie – whoever did it – as a reflexive, going through the motions attack. Also going back to basics, back to how he started, after what he did with the Kelly murder.
“I’ll do it but I don’t get much out of it this time”. I think it shows his declining interest in continuing rather than physical enfeeblement.

I see the torso as an attempt to get himself back ‘into it’ by trying something different, but no longer getting the same personal satisfaction.

There are personal reasons to his life why I think Cross stopped.

[Phil H]

It would not be implausible (IMHO) assuming for a moment that Lechmere/Cross killed at least some of the women, that he was responsible for Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes - all on familiar walk-to-work territory - NORTH of Whitechhpel High St and Commercial Rd.

He would NOT (again in MHO) be responsible for Stride or MJ Kelly, but then struck again with McKenzie.

That is just supposition, but I don't see a reason for him stopping then. Maybe his routine changed, he began to prosper... certainly if McKenzie was a JtR victim, he appears to have become "enfeebled" (I simply don't see the determination, or fury there, yet it has ALL the hallmarks of a Ripper attack - location, type of victim, attempted mutilation).

I think Lechmere/Cross is of interest, but I think we are a long way from being able to be as confident as our Lechmere seems (good on him though for some excellent arguments).

Phil

[Lechmere]

Obviously we can't know for sure, but for Cross I have what I think is a plausible reason or rationale for when he started and when he stopped - and thereafter may have got it out of his system.
I would included McKenzie and the Pinchin Street torso but not Coles.

[Rubyretro]

Rubyretro

"Or he didn't have many clothes"
I have thought about that and I don't it washes. He was a member of the respectable working class. He is on the electoral register and had a steady job. When he retired from being a carman he became a tea shop grocer with his own shop. When he died he left £262 in his will - a tidy sum in 1920.

[/QUOTE]

Lechmere -why do you think that he stopped killing after such an escalation
in violence , then ?

Personally, I think that the killer stopped as he had come under the Police radar..but that he would have killed again, even if he let some years elapse.
I think that he probably moved away, and he probably died before he could start again.

[Lechmere]

Ben - I have provided numerous grounds for suspicion that people can take on board or not. I haven't said he wasn't suspicious therefore he was suspicious. I have given explanations as to why he didn't attract police attention which is a different matter.

Monty
"Theres a lot of suggestion here. A lot."
This is the Ripper case so what do you expect. By the way his wife's family seem to have been illiterate also.
I deliberately use words like 'suggest' where some others (mentioning no names) tend to spice their theories up with absolutes. I think that is a more honest approach.

Rubyretro
"Or he didn't have many clothes"
I have thought about that and I don't it washes. He was a member of the respectable working class. He is on the electoral register and had a steady job. When he retired from being a carman he became a tea shop grocer with his own shop. When he died he left £262 in his will - a tidy sum in 1920.

[Phil H]

Ben

I can speak only for myself - Lechmere (the poster) takes the interest in his namesake much further than I care to do. Nevertheless, I believe that the reason that Lechmere/Cross is "of interest" is that he was discovered (to all intents and purposes) standing over the body of a freshly-killed woman.

He was the only person in whole series of murders of whom this is true, yet appears largely to have been overlooked.

Phil

[Ben]

A witness whose story wasn’t discredited and who presented themselves promptly and without fuss would not tend to invite attention as a suspect – I think.

But then there's no reason for anyone to suspect such an individual in the first place, Lechmere, us included. Not being suspicious is an interesting new criterion for assessing the likelihood of a person's complicity in the crimes, but not one I'd personally champion.

[Monty]

Monty
The police papers on the Nichols case name various people as being specifically questioned – i.e. the ones who were deemed particularly worthy of questioning. Cross isn’t one of them. I don’t take this to mean that he wasn’t questioned at all.

He must have provided a more detailed statement prior to his inquest appearance, but I would also suggest that he precipitated this by going to a police station voluntarily to give his statement.

As evidence for Cross voluntarily going to a police station, Paul was dragged out of bed several days later after he failed to show and only appeared at the inquest after the adjournment.

If he wasn’t known as Cross to anyone – and I would suggest the balance of probabilities from what we know of his life is that he wasn’t - then no one is likely to have mentioned his involvement to his wife.

They had spent their previous married and non married lives in the area south of Commercial Road (in various streets around Berner Street for want of a better landmark). This is a totally different district to the Doveton Street area, which while it came under Mile End Old Town was more normally considered part of Bethnal Green. Most likely they knew no one around their new home.
His wife had eight young children to bring up, including a new born and sickly girl. I don’t suppose she got out much.

You dont suppose she got out much?

Theres a lot of suggestion here. A lot.

Monty

[Lechmere]

GregBaron
There seems to have been hardly any blood in the Nichols scene - what there was soaked up in her dress under her body.

Plus I think whoever did it lifted the skirts and slashed at the abdomen, using the skirts as a shield - in other words with his body over her face or chest. She lay with her head towards Brady Street and her legs towards the school building. I think the killer faced toowards the school - the way PC Neil would approach. This would also account for him not realising that Paul (or Cross if Cross didn't do it) was coming up behind him. He was disturbed in the act.

So in the case of the Nichols murder I don't think there would be much blood and don't forget both Cross and Paul claim to have prodded and touched the body and don't appear to have had blood on them.

Would he have been flushed and hyperventilating? Maybe, maybe not. He could have been serenely calm. We are dealing with a nutter. Cross’s approach to Paul in the street was a bit odd. He didn’t call out. He went up to him in a way that made Paul think he was about to get mugged.
People think a killer would be in a frenzy, frothing at the mouth. The likelihood is that the killer wouldn't have appeared in this manner.

The Double Event was on Saturday night / Sunday morning so no work! But I have pointed out his mother lived near to Berner Street and his eldest daughter lived with his mother.

Yes someone had to find the body, but of all the bodies in all the Whitechapel murders, this was the only time the alarm was not immediately raised by the finders.

Tom
I know Robert Paul complained – Robert Paul comes across as a bit anti-establishment. I have never seen anything about Cross complaining.


Rubyretro
Whoever did it ran the risk of being spotted. Numerous serial killers are spotted and continue, are investigated and continue as if nothing happened.

On the inquest, where details of clothes are given, invariably people turned up in their Sunday best, knowing they were on show and that they wouldn’t be going anywhere else.

“so you think that the Police couldn't check out his exact movements to the minute, at the times of the murders. They wouldn't check out a witness as a suspect. They wouldn't be very wary of someone who seemed normal and respectable.”

A witness whose story wasn’t discredited and who presented themselves promptly and without fuss would not tend to invite attention as a suspect – I think.
The police were not wary of respectable looking people - householders with full time jobs. They did have an innate suspicion of people who did not have regular employment and who lived in places like lodging houses, as the police had an expectation that such people were more likely to commit crime.
As for checking his movements to the minute – had they done so they would have found that he had time to spare (possibly). We cannot know for sure.
The times all the witnesses give with respect to the Nichols murder are difficult to reconcile properly. In this case five minutes here or there make all the difference and people didn’t have such an accurate method for recording time. For example Robert Paul says he left home at 3.45. That would mean he found Cross at 3.50. Cross said he left at 3.20 or 3.30, which would mean he was at the murder scene at 3.28 or 3.38.
Then try adding in when PC Neil said he found the body, when Dr Llewellyn was called and so on and soon it becomes difficult to reconcile exactly. As the murder would have taken a few minutes to carry out, these discrepancies are important but not easy to unravel.

[Rubyretro]

[

QUOTE=Lechmere;180851]I think Tabram was a Ripper murder Either way I don’t think for a moment that Nichols was the first – whoever did it.

I agree with you here !

I don’t think he gained notoriety among his neighbours. He had literally only moved into Doveton Street a matter of months before the attacks started, so he probably wasn’t known.

I think that as everyone in the area must have been talking about the murders, they would know and gossip about any neighbour who had found a body and appeared at the inquest; local shopkeepers would gossip about him with customers.

Serial killers do continue killing after being looked at by the police

I certainly agree.

Didn’t your man Restivo do something similar? They often have a compulsion

.
Yes indeed -but he let some time elapse, and moved far away. I can't believe that JTR would be seen standing over a body one day, and then risk being recognised anywhere near a murder site with such a short gap and in the same area.

As I have said, if it was Cross, the way he breezed through the inquest could have given him confidence.

certainly but he could get away with that once, not twice.

I don’t think Cross was a criminal. I think he was pretty law abiding – apart from the obvious (if he did it of course).

yes, that is my idea of JTR.
[QUOTE]As for ‘checking out’[/QUOTE
Ah ..so you think that the Police couldn't check out his exact movements
to the minute, at the times of the murders. They wouldn't check out a witness as a suspect. They wouldn't be very wary of someone who seemed normal and respectable.

When the inquest was adjourned, the hue and cry about Pizer started and then the Chapman murder occurred and the search switched to Iscenschmidt. It is clear the police thought they had their man when he was locked up. Then we had the double event. By then Cross had been swept away and forgotten by the tide of events.

He'd have soon been remembered if he'd been spotted in Berner Street or Hanbury. The area is very small, and he must have got around it on his cart.
[QUOTE]

An innocuous local worker who seemed helpful It is curious that the murder took place on Friday and he attended the inquest on the Monday, in his work clothes, although he must have known he wouldn’t be able to go to work. He must have known he was attending the inquest or he wouldn’t have presented himself. I think he didn’t tell his wife he was going to the inquest and pretended he was going to work.

Or he didn't have many clothes, and didn't know how long his part of the inquest would last and whether he couldn't go to work as well (he was worried about loss of money)

[Tom_Wescott]

Monty, Lechmere, et al,

Was Cross among the people who petitioned for more money to appear at the inquest? I cleary recall that Albert Cadosch had come to do so, but I thought Cross also made a stink about it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GregBaron]

A mere innocent...

Gregbaron
The things you mention – blood stains, concealing a knife, a red sweaty face - would have been problems for whoever did it.
A lodging house dweller would have looked a bit conspicuous to the deputy for example.
If the culprit stayed out all night then he ran the risk of being stopped and questioned by a policeman on the beat. They did stop and question people regularly and clean rough sleepers out of regular haunts (e.g. read the statements by the policemen involved in finding the Pinchin Street torso).

Good point Lechmere but aren't we here talking about a near immediate apprehension....I guess we don't know exactly how long Nichols had been dead when Cross peered over her body but from the timelines and medical evaluations it couldn't have been much.......did he have time to get cleaned up and appear calm by the time Paul came near....? I guess we don't know but after all someone had to find the body............and Cross going to work certainly doesn't pertain to Stride or Eddowes....I personally think JTR would be a hard occupation to have while working and married with multiple children...............but yes of course I know I'm just speculating......

[Lechmere]

Monty
The police papers on the Nichols case name various people as being specifically questioned – i.e. the ones who were deemed particularly worthy of questioning. Cross isn’t one of them. I don’t take this to mean that he wasn’t questioned at all.
He must have provided a more detailed statement prior to his inquest appearance, but I would also suggest that he precipitated this by going to a police station voluntarily to give his statement.

As evidence for Cross voluntarily going to a police station, Paul was dragged out of bed several days later after he failed to show and only appeared at the inquest after the adjournment.

If he wasn’t known as Cross to anyone – and I would suggest the balance of probabilities from what we know of his life is that he wasn’t - then no one is likely to have mentioned his involvement to his wife.

They had spent their previous married and non married lives in the area south of Commercial Road (in various streets around Berner Street for want of a better landmark). This is a totally different district to the Doveton Street area, which while it came under Mile End Old Town was more normally considered part of Bethnal Green. Most likely they knew no one around their new home.
His wife had eight young children to bring up, including a new born and sickly girl. I don’t suppose she got out much.

Gregbaron
The things you mention – blood stains, concealing a knife, a red sweaty face - would have been problems for whoever did it.
A lodging house dweller would have looked a bit conspicuous to the deputy for example.
If the culprit stayed out all night then he ran the risk of being stopped and questioned by a policeman on the beat. They did stop and question people regularly and clean rough sleepers out of regular haunts (e.g. read the statements by the policemen involved in finding the Pinchin Street torso).

[GregBaron]

No cars necessary...

I just looked up Cross and realized that he probably picked up his cars at his employers so he wouldn't have them outside of work. Makes sense. This makes moot my car points. The others may still invite speculation however....


Greg