What Direction Was Polly Travelling When She Was Killed?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Steve,

Think of it this way.

The gates of Brown's Stable Yard opened inwards. This suggests they were locked/fastened from the inside.

If correct, how did Mr. Brown exit the yard?

Through the Winthrop Street entrance.

House of Commons Papers 1875 -



Regards,

Simon

[Elamarna]

Then Simon´s suggestion is off the charts, and we have a suggestion of the slaughtermen being the culprits. But we still have Llewellyn satisfying himself that the blood inside Nichols accounted for the full quantity. Did the knackers put it back in or was Llewellyn wrong?

There is the very good chance that Llewellyn was wrong, and that suggestion appears to be backed by evidence.



Steve

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

To build the railway cutting behind the board school, five houses were demolished in Bucks Row, and six in Winthrop Street [Little North Street at the time]. The space abutting the remaining houses became Brown's Stable Yard.

Pre-demolition

[ATTACH]18849[/ATTACH]

Post-demolition

[ATTACH]18850[/ATTACH]

In 2004 Chris Scott posted the following—

[Here's] something I came across recently. I'm afraid I cannot shed any light on Mr Brown but it looks as though the stable site was not only sold at the end of 1888 but comprehensively demolished.

In The Times of 29 December 1888, the following advert appeared:

Sound Building Materials - Buck's Row, Whitechapel
Messrs. Fuller, Horsey, Sons, and Cassell are instructed to sell by auction on Monday, January 7th, at 1 precisely, on the premises, Buck's row, Whitechapel (to clear the site, the freehold having been sold) the materials of Stables, Coach Houses and Sheds, comprising about 100 squares slates and tiles, 40 squares floor boards, 50 rods brickwork, turret clock and three faces, bell, and tower, stable fittings, 180 squares stone paving &c. May be viewed on Friday and Saturday preceding the sale, and catalogues had on the premises; and of Messrs. Fuller, Horsey, Sons, and Cassell, 11 Billiter square, E.C.

[ATTACH]18851[/ATTACH]

If this was Brown's Stable Yard—and there's no reason to think otherwise—it may not have been a working stable yard on 31st August 1888.

So, no need to frighten the horses.

Regards,

Simon

PS. My money is on PCs Neil and Thain, plus the slaughtermen.

Hi Simon,
interesting and certainly suggestive, but far from conclusive that there was an exit into Winthrop, and if there was it would not be something i was worried by, just the opposite, unfortunatly i cannot agree with your views on Neil and Thain, but we cant all agree on everything.

Got to think now if a small rewrite is needed? Maybe a line about the demolition at the end of 88. pity no proof of an exit


Steve

[Simon Wood]

Hi Steve,

To build the railway cutting behind the board school, five houses were demolished in Bucks Row, and six in Winthrop Street [Little North Street at the time]. The space abutting the remaining houses became Brown's Stable Yard.

Pre-demolition



Post-demolition



In 2004 Chris Scott posted the following—

[Here's] something I came across recently. I'm afraid I cannot shed any light on Mr Brown but it looks as though the stable site was not only sold at the end of 1888 but comprehensively demolished.

In The Times of 29 December 1888, the following advert appeared:

Sound Building Materials - Buck's Row, Whitechapel
Messrs. Fuller, Horsey, Sons, and Cassell are instructed to sell by auction on Monday, January 7th, at 1 precisely, on the premises, Buck's row, Whitechapel (to clear the site, the freehold having been sold) the materials of Stables, Coach Houses and Sheds, comprising about 100 squares slates and tiles, 40 squares floor boards, 50 rods brickwork, turret clock and three faces, bell, and tower, stable fittings, 180 squares stone paving &c. May be viewed on Friday and Saturday preceding the sale, and catalogues had on the premises; and of Messrs. Fuller, Horsey, Sons, and Cassell, 11 Billiter square, E.C.



If this was Brown's Stable Yard—and there's no reason to think otherwise—it may not have been a working stable yard on 31st August 1888.

So, no need to frighten the horses.

Regards,

Simon

PS. My money is on PCs Neil and Thain, plus the slaughtermen.

[Fisherman]

If she was killed inside the slaughter yard, the presence of blood there wouldn't have raised any suspicion. You could then wrap her in a tarpaulin and smuggle her through the stores into Bucks Row without leaving much, if any blood en route.

Then Simon´s suggestion is off the charts, and we have a suggestion of the slaughtermen being the culprits. But we still have Llewellyn satisfying himself that the blood inside Nichols accounted for the full quantity. Did the knackers put it back in or was Llewellyn wrong?

[Elamarna]

Indeed it was.

They were grilled by the police and gave each other alibis.

I have to say, I never really had the familiar Winthrop Street 3 in the frame. But there were others who worked for HB who have never been in the spotlight.

while I find it hard to beleive that the killer was based there, basically being a kos man, i cannot ignore the fact that there appears to have been something hidden at HB, by Tomkins and to a lesser degree Mumford.
And as you rightly say there were more people who worked there than the 3.

Steve

[MrBarnett]

And before we forget, the finger was pointed at them initially, at least by the locals and the press.


Steve

Indeed it was.

They were grilled by the police and gave each other alibis.

I have to say, I never really had the familiar Winthrop Street 3 in the frame. But there were others who worked for HB who have never been in the spotlight.

[Elamarna]

Hi John,

I'm not suggesting anything other than how the murder might have taken place in Winthrop Street and the body be subsequently moved to Bucks Row without leaving a suspicious blood trail.

Of course, if that was what happened, then the finger of suspicion would point to the slaughtermen.

Gary

And before we forget, the finger was pointed at them initially, at least by the locals and the press.


Steve

[MrBarnett]

I might have misunderstood this post. Are you suggesting that JtR was in the habit of wandering through Whitechapel with copious amounts of tarpaulin strapped to his back?

Hi John,

I'm not suggesting anything other than how the murder might have taken place in Winthrop Street and the body be subsequently moved to Bucks Row without leaving a suspicious blood trail.

Of course, if that was what happened, then the finger of suspicion would point to the slaughtermen.

Gary

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

No, none of the maps I have are of any help.

Who would have required storage space in Winthrop Street, I wonder?

HB, perhaps or the Board of works?

On the subject of Mulshaw, I have the idea that he may have been in one of those little workmens tents. Perhaps he didn't see who it was who called out to him.

Gary

Yes possible connections to groups we have discussed in the past Gary.


Steve

[Elamarna]

I might have misunderstood this post. Are you suggesting that JtR was in the habit of wandering through Whitechapel with copious amounts of tarpaulin strapped to his back?

I am sure that was not what Gary was suggesting John.

Remember the yard was in use, before , during and after the murder.


Steve

[MrBarnett]

Gary
all i could find for the period was the maps, 73 and 93-96 neither seem to show any door, nor does Goad, however such should not exclude the possibilty that such may have been.

Some clear evidence would be great, even if it means a slight rewrite of my work.

steve

Hi Steve,

No, none of the maps I have are of any help.

Who would have required storage space in Winthrop Street, I wonder?

HB, perhaps or the Board of works?

On the subject of Mulshaw, I have the idea that he may have been in one of those little workmens tents. Perhaps he didn't see who it was who called out to him.

Gary

[John G]

If she was killed inside the slaughter yard, the presence of blood there wouldn't have raised any suspicion. You could then wrap her in a tarpaulin and smuggle her through the stores into Bucks Row without leaving much, if any blood en route.

I might have misunderstood this post. Are you suggesting that JtR was in the habit of wandering through Whitechapel with copious amounts of tarpaulin strapped to his back?

[Elamarna]

If she was killed inside the slaughter yard, the presence of blood there wouldn't have raised any suspicion. You could then wrap her in a tarpaulin and smuggle her through the stores into Bucks Row without leaving much, if any blood en route.

Good points Gary, now i wonder who might be in the slaughter yard?


Steve

[Elamarna]

Considering the damage done to the body, there would have been a massive blood loss in Winthrop Street and all over Brown´s Yard, arguably. Why was no blood found in these places? And, not least, why did Llewellyn feel that all the blood was accounted for and had seeped into the abdominal cavity?

Any thoughts?

Christer, while I consider an escape via the yard as, shall we say, not impossible, if a exit to Winthrop could be shown, i agree that the lack of Blood in the yard argues against the body being moved via it.


Steve

update: Gary's post below crossed, the possibility cannot be reject as easily as i suggested