What Direction Was Polly Travelling When She Was Killed?

[Batman]

To a stranger venturing alone among these dark corridors there would seem to be a danger of failing to find his way out again.

That does sound like our Jack though. Dark places where he has no trouble seeing at all apparently.

Instead of Jack the Ripper he should be called Jack the Carrot eater.

Policemen with lanterns are so in the group to consider here given the location.

[Joshua Rogan]

I don't think it did. We discussed a press report that mentioned that some time ago. What is your source for that, Joshua?

Yes, it was a press report that mentions the shop in passing. The Pall Mall Gazette 11th Sept 89. It may even have been me that brought it up before, but if it was, I didn't remember whether it was connected to the Lechmeres or not. I guess not, if their business was in Broadway market.
Cheers.

[packers stem]

hey fish
Im not sure if it has been mentioned before but to me as I just posted, and have also said repeatedly in the past-that the torso dump sites were done on purpose and had special meaning to the killer-so Lechs step father being a cop-maybe that has something to do with the dumping in the NSY vault? has this been discussed before?

It's dumping there was a 'message' .... nothing to do with someone's past .
It's the timings that are more important than the location though .

Arm dumped in the Thames on the same day as Chapman's murder .
Torso dumped at NSY over the weekend of the so called double event ....
Open your eyes peeps

[Abby Normal]

hey fish
Im not sure if it has been mentioned before but to me as I just posted, and have also said repeatedly in the past-that the torso dump sites were done on purpose and had special meaning to the killer-so Lechs step father being a cop-maybe that has something to do with the dumping in the NSY vault? has this been discussed before?

[Trevor Marriott]

She had her uterus taken out, Chapman, Kelly and Eddowes suffered the same fate.

But not by their killer/killers

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

No, it is not a false accusation at all. You used to have a good track record of producing a whole lot of good material. In my eyes, though, you have let that slip totally the last few years.

That's incorrect, if not mildly libellous I have assuredly not let my standards slip, and I trust that I have continued to produce good, sensible material. Perhaps you define "slipping totally" as "disagreeing with some of Fisherman's ideas"?

[jerryd]

It sounds very much like someone working there knew where to dump it, but at the same time I can't help but think it's a construction site with the foundations down and therefore anyone off the streets could figure a way in. Pretty sure homeless people would chance it for a night's kip.

Daily Telegraph October 3. 1888

At present only the foundations and a portion of the first storey have been built, and the place is surrounded by a high hoarding.

The ground structure consists of a vast labyrinth of brick passages, archways, and vaulted chambers.

Although there are a large number of men employed on the works, very few of them, it is said, would have readily found their way through the intricate vaults to the spot where the mutilated trunk was concealed.To a stranger venturing alone among these dark corridors there would seem to be a danger of failing to find his way out again.

[Sam Flynn]

So you now falsely imply to know the difference between Kellys and Jacksons respective flaps?

Don't you dare accuse me of falsely implying ANYTHING. Anyone who reads Hebbert's and Bond's respective reports on Jackson and Kelly (or who looks at the Kelly photographs, for that matter) will know that what I said was perfectly true.

[Sam Flynn]

In all probability, George Hutchinson did NOT normally stay in the Victoria Home.

I didn't claim that he normally stayed there, only that he stayed there.

He cannot be placed outside Kellys room on the murder night with any certainty

Any more than Cross can be placed in Hanbury St, Berner St, Mitre Square or Dorset Street. That aside, I'm not making a case for Hutchinson, only pointing out that, on the basis of the official record, he was in Dorset Street on the night in question. Maybe he wasn't, but that's not my point.

The fact that he had two feet and was able to walk will not place him at any other of the murder sites or even very close to them.

Cross had two feet and was able to walk, too, so that cancels out. That said, at least Hutchinson would have had less of a distance to cover before he found a victim or headed back to safety, which is more than can be said for Cross.

Hutchinson lived in the area, whether at the Victoria Home or elsewhere, had no job and no obligations. On this basis we can place him at the murder/torso sites just as easily as you've done with Cross, but with fewer excuses required.

Now, no more denial and no more arrogance, please. It's obvious that Hutch was the Ripper.

[Fisherman]

Now that's totally false accusation, isn't it? Not wishing to blow my own trumpet, nor indeed pretending that I'm always right, but I think I have a good track record of producing very sensible scenarios indeed.

No, it is not a false accusation at all. You used to have a good track record of producing a whole lot of good material. In my eyes, though, you have let that slip totally the last few years.

I may be wrong, but to me it seems to coincide with how the Pickfords carman has been suggested as the Ripper.

[Fisherman]

He also, and more frequently, described them as two slips (or strips) of flesh.
Nowhere near as large as Kelly's - now they were truly "large flaps". And three in number, come to think of it.

And, to repeat, Jackson did not have "her abdominal wall taken way", but PART of the wall of the lower abdomen. Out of all the victims, only Kelly literally had her abdominal wall taken away, from the pubic arch to the diaphragm, and from flank to flank; like I say, they were "big flaps" all right.
It's a fact that she had her foetus removed, and the conjecture that she wouldn't have had her uterus removed, had she not been pregnant, is a perfectly reasonable one.Neither of whom was pregnant, and neither of whom were decapitated or dismembered.
Not a major link, when taken into conjunction with all the other details.

So you now falsely imply to know the difference between Kellys and Jacksons respective flaps?

Do you? Letīs hear it. And no mumbling about how it is evident - PROVE it.

And then PROVE how different shaps and sizes of the flaps would in any way be pointing out to us that they had different originators. These kinds of flaps are rarer than henīs teeth. The mere fact that they were cut from both victims should NOT have us saying "If Jacksons flaps were three inches smaller and more oblong, that proves that the originator differed in these cases". Itīs like saying that if the message "Judas!" written in ink on the foreheads of murder victims is a non-issue if the ink is not of the same colour in all cases. Thatīs how clever your take on things is, and that is putting it mildly.

I note that you now admit that having the uteri taken out from murder victims forms a link. I of course was myself extremely well aware of that undisputable fact beforehand, but I would nevertheless want to thank you officially for having long last arrived at that realization.

Can we now move on to admitting that having flaps cut away from the abdominal flesh is ALSO a link? Yes?

[Sam Flynn]

Incidentally, there was a cat's meat shop on the corner of Backchurch Lane and Cable Street, not 50 yards from where the Pinchin St torso was found

Just goes to show how easy it can be to find apparently spooky links in this case. In a parallel Universe, I'll bet someone is championing the case that the "Butcher of Backchurch Lane" was both the Torso Killer and Jack the Ripper.

[Fisherman]

Let's test that, shall we? George Hutchinson stayed in the Victoria Home, a short walk from where all the victims lived and slap-bang in the geo-profiling heat map. He met Mary Kelly on her on the night of her death, and can be placed outside her room within hours, if not sooner, of her murder. Hutchinson wasn't averse to walking for miles at night, so toddling off to (e.g.) Bucks Row or Mitre Square should have presented him with no problems. Furthermore, he was unemployed, not obligated to any boss,not tied to a work rota, and free to come and go as he pleased, at any time.

On grounds of his proximity to the victims and the scenes of crime, in terms of opportunity, and because we can definitely place him with one victim on the night of her death, it's would be sheer denial and arrogance not to accept the obvious fact that George Hutchinson was Jack the Ripper.

In all probability, George Hutchinson did NOT normally stay in the Victoria Home.

He cannot be placed outside Kellys room on the murder night with any certainty, and may well have been mistaken on the day - as suggested by Walter Dew.

The fact that he had two feet and was able to walk will not place him at any other of the murder sites or even very close to them. It is WHERE you walk that governs that, not how much you walk. Unlike Lechmere, we cannot say where he stayed at the times of the respective murders, and we cannot claim that he would have a reason to traverse the murder areas.

Being unemployed is no guarantee that he roamed the streets of the murder areas at the relevant hours either.

Hutchinson was - as you will agree - Topping Hutchinson, and he was therefore way too young to have killed the 1873 and 1874 torso victims. And he had no ties to Pinchin Street as far as we know.

So what are you left with? Nothing, nada, zilch. There is nothing at all that is compelling about the man (but there IS in Lechmeres case, in spades). And you know what? I would nevertheless say that IF he was the man outside Millers Court on the 9:th, then he is a far better suspect than many of the others suggested - although that does not mean that he was a good suspect at all, only better than most of the others.
And why? Because he was there - if he was the loiterer.

If he was not, then the whole case that can be built against him - according to you - is that he could walk and was unemployed.

Lechmere is factually tied to the Bucks Row murder site.
Hutchinson is not factually tied to any murder site - at least not on the murder night of Kelly.

Lechmere had reason to pass the killing fields between Hanbury and Old Montague every working day.
Hutchinson had no such reason.

Lechmere had a very good reason to visit the Berner Street area, and he had grown up there and lived there until a few weeks before the murders started.
Hutchinson had no such reason or experience.

Lechmere is tied to Pinchin Street, where a torso showe dup.
Hutchinson is not.

Eddowes died roughly along the route from Lechmeres old quarters to Broad Street.
That does not apply for Hutchinson.

Lechmere was old enough to have killed in 1873.
Hutchinson was not.

Lechmere had contacts in the butchery and horse flesh business, many of them within his own family.
Hutchinson had no such known contacts.

Shall I go on, Gareth? Or is it becoming too embarrasing?

Can you see how this weighs over massively in favour of Lechmeres candidacy? Or are you going to deny it flat out?

It is a kamikaze mission you are on. And you will be exposed for it, if that is your wish.

It would seem it is.

[MrBarnett]

Incidentally, there was a cat's meat shop on the corner of Backchurch Lane and Cable Street, not 50 yards from where the Pinchin St torso was found. Does anyone know if this had any connection to Lechmere or his mum?

I don't think it did. We discussed a press report that mentioned that some time ago. What is your source for that, Joshua?

[Sam Flynn]

We can always produce scenarios that make no sense at all. You have a flair for it, so you would know.

Now that's totally false accusation, isn't it? Not wishing to blow my own trumpet, nor indeed pretending that I'm always right, but I think I have a good track record of producing very sensible scenarios indeed.