Those coins and those grapes!

[John G]

The inconsistency with the timings allows us to question his veracity, as does the involvement of the criminal Le Grand, and Packer's subsequent claim to have sold grapes to the Ripper's cousin.

Collectively, this infers that he was an attention seeker, or someone hoping to make money from the press, or a share in a reward, I.e if the Ripper was caught

Unfortunately, the Whitechapel investigations attracted this type of "witness", just as the much later Yorkshire Ripper enquiry attracted Weirside Jack. Although, as an attention seeker, be was probably a little more convincing than Packer, I.e. because the police initially accepted the authenticity of his communications.

[packers stem]

Exactly, the flesh of the grape will disappear in no time, and the body laid for about 38 hours before the autopsy was conducted.

We have a handful of witnesses seeing the grapes, a grape stalk, fruit stains, and Packers claim.
Conversely, we have no grapes found in the yard, no sign of grapes; no pips, no skins, in the stomach.
So was there or wasn't there any grapes?
Does it really matter?
It doesn't impact the case in any significant way regardless which you choose to believe.

The most important contribution by Packer, for me, is his claim to see Stride with a man directly opposite the yard at 12:30, just like PC Smith.
Their statements confirm each other, so regardless of the fact Packers stated time's changed, one of his claims (12:00-12:30) finds corroboration in PC Smith, so the other time (11:00-11:30) attributed to Packer, can be dismissed.

Morning Wickerman
I agree about the grapes lack of importance
What is of concern though is the clear efforts to discredit Packer and distance his sighting in the timeline
It's obvious that packer himself would have absolutely nothing to gain from adjusting the time. So we can reasonably assume that someone else wanted the time adjustment

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Oh dear.

No takers for Tumblety murdering Chapman.

What a shocker.

Regards,

Simon

[Robert St Devil]

WICKERMAN. Were Elizabeth Strides clothes soaked? I dont know your worth in the Advertiser papers, but one ran a report stating Packer saw the couple standing in the rain for 30 minutes, and commented on the inanity to his wife. JBest says they ran off into the rain after roasting the clerkish man.

[Wickerman]

... if so, how could he possibly determine the 'no grapes for several hours' ? Grape,without pip or skin would be digested almost immediately surely.

Exactly, the flesh of the grape will disappear in no time, and the body laid for about 38 hours before the autopsy was conducted.

We have a handful of witnesses seeing the grapes, a grape stalk, fruit stains, and Packers claim.
Conversely, we have no grapes found in the yard, no sign of grapes; no pips, no skins, in the stomach.
So was there or wasn't there any grapes?
Does it really matter?
It doesn't impact the case in any significant way regardless which you choose to believe.

The most important contribution by Packer, for me, is his claim to see Stride with a man directly opposite the yard at 12:30, just like PC Smith.
Their statements confirm each other, so regardless of the fact Packers stated time's changed, one of his claims (12:00-12:30) finds corroboration in PC Smith, so the other time (11:00-11:30) attributed to Packer, can be dismissed.

[packers stem]

And, the fruit stains on her handkerchief identified by Dr Phillips.
Caused by the purple grapes, or by some other fruit at some other time?

Could have been anything I suppose.Something a bit odd about Phillips at the stride inquest.
Wasn't it adjourned for a week and he came back and said what he said about her not eating grapes (or is my memory playing tricks) if so, how could he possibly determine the 'no grapes for several hours' ? Grape,without pip or skin would be digested almost immediately surely.
I suspect he was still a bit peeved with Baxter after his treatment at the Chapman inquest

[Wickerman]

....without packer there are no grapes other than the woman who spotted the stalk in the yard

And, the fruit stains on her handkerchief identified by Dr Phillips.
Caused by the purple grapes, or by some other fruit at some other time?

[packers stem]

It was a different time Richard.
There are some things we just can't be bothered to do today.

"Discard your grape skins"


The Star, Guernsey, 3 Nov. 1887.

Hi Wickerman
Suppose they must have 'sucked' the fruit of the grape out and spat out the skin then.might seem a bit tedious to us but we tend to be a bit rushed with our meals as with life in general in modern society.Maybe they just savoured things a little more back in the day

[Wickerman]

Why were the 'skins' of the grapes not eaten? Pips are spat but I'v never know anyone not eat the skin of a grape. It would take ages to peel a grape!

It was a different time Richard.
There are some things we just can't be bothered to do today.

"Discard your grape skins"


The Star, Guernsey, 3 Nov. 1887.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Just to keep the pot boiling and the bandwagon's wheels turning—

When Francis Tumblety died in St Louis, his personal effects were itemized and recorded by the attending staff.

He had a very expensive gold pocket watch, a large chunk of money...some fine cufflinks, and in his vest pocket two small imitation gold rings sized for women's fingers.

Regards,

Simon

[packers stem]

Sat here thinking.

If the murders had happened today, so much is known in the public forum about Masonic Craft rituals over the whole world, via the internet, that the slightest sign of a rolled up trouser leg would give the game away immediately.

Makes you wonder whether today's knowledge is being used for solving yesterday's crimes, or being used to fit the crime to the suspect.

I think the latter.



Phil

That's muddled my brain Phil lol
Haven't started 'they all love jack' and may take me weeks to get through it so I'll let you know

[Phil Carter]

Sat here thinking.

If the murders had happened today, so much is known in the public forum about Masonic Craft rituals over the whole world, via the internet, that the slightest sign of a rolled up trouser leg would give the game away immediately.

Makes you wonder whether today's knowledge is being used for solving yesterday's crimes, or being used to fit the crime to the suspect.

I think the latter.



Phil

[Phil Carter]

Re Masonic ritual

The rings thing has, according to Robinson and Co something to do with one of the initiation rituals which include the removal of all metal objects.




Phil

[Debra A]

Another excellent find, Debra. Maybe Bruce should have employed you as a researcher rather than Keith Skinner!

Thanks John.
He probably would have payed better than that Tim Prescott as well.

[Debra A]

Debra is there anywhere I can read this? I have been looking into Batty street.

Pat.....

This is the article Pat:


It appeared in the North Eastern Daily Gazette and the Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser on Wednesday, October 10, 1888

Tom Wescott referenced my find in his 2010 article about Grande in Casebook Examiner (issue one??).