'Self inflicted' - seriously?

[martin wilson]

Too true GUT, I haven't come across any 'HORRIBLE DEATH WHILE SLICING DESSERT' headlines yet, but it's very early days and I'm fairly confident.

All the best.

[GUT]

Hi again,

The white handled dessert knife sounds familiar to the one produced by John Richardson at the inquest of Anne Chapman, somebody should really have said something to somebody because they appear to be bloody lethal.
One press report, in an early grab for The Star's circulation figures had Mr Sibley DISEMBOWELLED!!
Press reports are lol though, one reporter had the man as Thomas Selby.

All the best.

Deadly those desert knives.

[martin wilson]

Hi again,

The white handled dessert knife sounds familiar to the one produced by John Richardson at the inquest of Anne Chapman, somebody should really have said something to somebody because they appear to be bloody lethal.
One press report, in an early grab for The Star's circulation figures had Mr Sibley DISEMBOWELLED!!
Press reports are lol though, one reporter had the man as Thomas Selby.

All the best.

[martin wilson]

Hi all

Good stuff David, sounds like a case for Sherlock Holmes.
Meanwhile, I invite you to consider
HORRIBLE MURDER AT HENDON
Being the gruesome death of William Sibley 61 of Burnt Oak Edgeware, fished out of the River Brent in January 1880 by George Abery in the press report, who has turned into David Dangerfield by the time of the inquest.
On retrieval from the river, parts of the abdomen were found to be missing.
Inspector Goldsmith and Sgt Porter found the various parts along the path to the bridge, along with a hat and a white handled knife, similar to a dessert knife.
George Abery son of the deceased said his father was complaining of stomach pains.
William Harris, blacksmith said Sibley had complained about a severe headache, adding "I will be the next to go"
Dr Andrews, Hendon, assisted by Dr Bond Police Surgeon was of the opinion the wounds to the abdomen were self inflicted, an opinion shared by Dr Bond.

Verdict; Suicide.

All the best.

[Ausgirl]

Thanks everyone, lots of food for thought in all your replies.

No time right now for a better response, but just to let you know I'm reading and appreciating. Cheers.

[David Orsam]

A classic case is the 1903 murder of Dora Piernick who was found in a locked room, on her bed, with her throat cut and no weapon in the room (or key to the door). Despite the absence of a weapon, the jury was told by the coroner that if they were unsure whether they were dealing with a case of suicide or murder they could return an open verdict, which is exactly what they did! The theory apparently being that someone might have found her dead body and taken the weapon away from the scene.

We might also note that PC Neil's first reaction on finding the body of Nichols was that it was a suicide (if the report of his evidence in the London Evening Post is to be believed). From my own research, when police saw the body of Emily Dimmock in her room in 1907 their first thought was that she had committed suicide and it was only when the doctor found that her head had nearly been cut off from her body that suicide was ruled out. So perhaps there was a default police view that dead bodies were suicides unless there was very good evidence to the contrary.

[martin wilson]

Hi Ausgirl.

They probably know what you silly creatures are like when you get an idea into your pretty little heads.

The one case I am currently reading up on is the murder of Annie Yates in Burton Crescent in 1884, also Mrs Samuels, Burton Crescent 1878.

One press report would certainly encourage you to keep a wary eye on your biscuit, being an attempt to explain Annie's death as an accident.

Trail has gone cold for the mo, if anybody knows if anyone was charged for either of the above, or any information about Mary Donovan or James Wells/Philips I would appreciate it.
All the best.

[Batman]

What is more likely is that by the late 18th century science had by then well entered into a new era exposing where there had been a prior history of calling suicides, murders and some murders, suicides. Being brought to the magistrates attention in 1888 there was no more room for making blunders like this if they had the science to demonstrate otherwise. So I guess its a way of the Coroner covering themselves.

[GUT]

I hadn't noticed this before.. but in Killeen's comments during the Tabram inquest, he makes a comment regarding the impossibility of the "whole" of the wounds being self-inflicted. It took me a moment to process that what he meant was probably not "none of the wounds" but "she could not have done it all herself".

Then we have Annie Millwood, who was (for some reason I can't quite work out) suspected of stabbing herself repeatedly in the legs.

Was infliction of grievous, multiple wounds to one's own body so common a practice for women that officials would even give pause to the idea when presented with a badly injured victim?

Were stabbed prostitutes just not taken very seriously, until Tabram, then Nichols, and the papers got hold of it?

I suspect that his comments at Tabram's inquest was to do with the purpose of an inquest, ie to establish Cause of Death and that needs to eliminate suicide, I would guess that it was common to make such a statement I know that it is not unusual today for a medical examiner to say something along the lines of "The wounds could not have been self inflicted"

[Pcdunn]

I think it is merely a sign of the time and place. Women in general were not taken seriously, why should those of the lowest "unfortunates" class be valued or listened to?
Remember, in this era, women didn't vote, could be sent to an asylum unjustly merely on a husband's or other male relative's word, and were believed to be of weak mind and liable to hysterical behavior on a monthly basis.

One thing that interested me in reading the news reports of Mary Ann Nichols's death was how they initially called her "a quiet, respectable woman", yet that changed after it was discovered that she was "an unfortunate".

Another thought is that stabbings went on so frequently in Whitechapel that the cops just didn't want to be bothered with investigating them.

[Ausgirl]

I hadn't noticed this before.. but in Killeen's comments during the Tabram inquest, he makes a comment regarding the impossibility of the "whole" of the wounds being self-inflicted. It took me a moment to process that what he meant was probably not "none of the wounds" but "she could not have done it all herself".

Then we have Annie Millwood, who was (for some reason I can't quite work out) suspected of stabbing herself repeatedly in the legs.

Was infliction of grievous, multiple wounds to one's own body so common a practice for women that officials would even give pause to the idea when presented with a badly injured victim?

Were stabbed prostitutes just not taken very seriously, until Tabram, then Nichols, and the papers got hold of it?