Throat Cuts

[Aethelwulf]

It includes:

Current estimates suggest that three in 10 women experience sexual assault or rape in their lifetime. Among those who visit a hospital post-assault, 70 percent report being “frozen,” unable to move or cry out.

Surveys reveal that victims of sexual assault often report being unable to move or scream during the assault, even when they’re not physically restrained.

Whatever we imagine based upon our lack of experience of being in an urgent situation and whatever we conclude based upon that, it does not match the experiences of those in an urgent, threatening situation. You're assuming the brain functions in the same way in any and every situation, which is an erroneous assumption.

I understand that is very likely a natural response. But 70% of those who visit a hospital post-assault being unable to move or cry out still leaves 30% doing something else. I know you said you can't access the article so there might be more detail on the 30% in the paper.

In this case we have three examples of women in threatening situations, two life threatening and they all cry out in, some way, even 'desperate' as reported in one case. Also the 'no' from Hanbury Street could be some realisation of something happening, although that one is strongly debated.

As a general rule it might be useful but can you be sure it applies in every case? Has every woman that has ever been threatened or attacked just sat there quietly?

[Fleetwood Mac]

I find it hard to believe that Kelly, alerted by something and seeing or feeling something sinister happening didn't call out.

That's because we're reasoning it out and assuming a voluntary response.

Freezing in urgent, dangerous situations is an involuntarily response as opposed to a choice, driven by evolutionary instincts. It happens in all animals, including humans. Studies have demonstrated that severe, urgent threats, like assault or physical restraint, trigger a freeze response involving fixed posture (tonic immobility) or loss of muscle tone (collapsed immobility). We are unable to make voluntary actions during that process. 'Think a rabbit caught in headlights. It prevents a victim from actively resisting.

It's not a permanent response, it's the brain's initial reaction. In the event Mary was aware of an urgent situation, and she was murdered seconds after that, then studies of surviving victims and of neurology tell us that there's a very good chance Mary froze and did nothing, involuntarily borne of the brain's natural reaction to an urgent threat.

Here is an article commenting on a journal which I can't access it:

Rape victims can become 'frozen' with fear - which courts misinterpret as consent - Study Finds

It includes:

Current estimates suggest that three in 10 women experience sexual assault or rape in their lifetime. Among those who visit a hospital post-assault, 70 percent report being “frozen,” unable to move or cry out.

Surveys reveal that victims of sexual assault often report being unable to move or scream during the assault, even when they’re not physically restrained.

Whatever we imagine based upon our lack of experience of being in an urgent situation and whatever we conclude based upon that, it does not match the experiences of those in an urgent, threatening situation. You're assuming the brain functions in the same way in any and every situation, which is an erroneous assumption.

[Fleetwood Mac]

When you point out 'clean' or 'jagged', are you thinking of either a sharp knife, or a blunt knife?

No, that wasn't in my mind.

Dr Phillips said this in relation to Annie:

I noticed that the incision of the skin was jagged, and reached right round the neck.

And this in relation to Liz:

On neck, from left to right, there is a clean cut incision six inches in length; incision commencing two and a half inches in a straight line

With the OP in mind and that which modern day pathologists expect to see in a cut depending on where the attacker is positioned, then the jagged incision may indicate a cut from in front and the clean incision may indicate a cut from behind.

As far as I can tell, Dr Lewellyn and Dr Brown do not differentiate between the two in their assessment of 'jagged' or 'clean' incision, based on the inquest testimony and post-mortem reports.

[Aethelwulf]

I don't think that Mary cried out "murder" as she was being attacked either, although I wouldn't agree with your alternative.

Empirical studies strongly ebb towards women freezing in that situation, in the immediate anyway.

It's a response that is hard wired and is automatic in the face of a danger, the brain is signaled to inhibit movement.

In fact, in the immediate, the brain is hard wired to not scream let alone shout murder.

It is evolutionary factors which underpin the response to a serious assault as opposed to what we think should happen when we reason it out.

I can see keeping quiet being the response if someone is actively searching with intent to harm. You hear similar with these school shootings in the US. People hide and keep quiet. Evidence from this case doesn't agree with keeping quiet though in the case of a forewarned attack. What about BS and (presumably) Stride (or whoever it was) - she called out. Farmer as well screamed out. Also a decent comparison to millers court, the earwitness evidence from the murder of ellen bury, presumably she saw what was coming and screamed:

David Duncan – About three o’clock in the morning of Tuesday 5^th February I had occasion to get out of bed.

Lord Young – And while you were up did anything occur outside that attracted your attention?

David Duncan – Yes. I heard a woman scream three times in distress – desperate. I wakened Ann Johnston, calling her twice, and asked her if she had heard the screams, but she said "No".

Lord Young – Did the screaming stop?

David Duncan – At once.

Lord Young – Did you listen carefully for anymore screams?

David Duncan – Yes. I listened for half an hour or more.

Lord Young – No more screams were heard?

David Duncan – No.

I find it hard to believe that Kelly, alerted by something and seeing or feeling something sinister happening didn't call out.

[Wickerman]

It's only a possibility I'm presenting, Jon, as opposed to a sell.

What you may find interesting is that the immediate reaction of women who experience sexual assaults, is to freeze. Many, many articles have been put together on this, including the immediate reaction of the human brain and its response to an attack of that nature. That is based upon empirical evidence as opposed to you and I surmising that which could happen in such a situation.

Getting back to throat cuts:

Dr Phillips described a jagged cut on Annie and a clean cut on Liz. Dr Lewellyn and Dr Brown do not distinguish between the two as far as I can tell. If you have information to the contrary and I'd be interested to read it, Jon.

Based on what those modern day pathologists expect to see, that would ebb towards Liz being cut from behind and Annie being cut from the front.

It's a shame that the other two doctors do not describe whether or not the throat cuts to Catherine and Polly were clean or jagged.

When you point out 'clean' or 'jagged', are you thinking of either a sharp knife, or a blunt knife?

[Wickerman]

why? because i think that the evidence points to mary knowing her killer, and for whatever psychological reasons he didnt want to see her face and or didnt want her to see his face while he was killing her.

"Knowing" encompasses a very wide spectrum and would include having met him for the first time that very day.

I would think that if it were personal that he would absolutely want her to see him. She needs to understand before she dies that she got exactly what was coming to her for what she did to him.

c.d.

I see the cut sheet was just the killer attempting to keep the blood spatter to a minimum, he pulled it over her head.
We can only guess.

[Fleetwood Mac]

She cried out "oh-murder" while her door was open

I don't think that Mary cried out "murder" as she was being attacked either, although I wouldn't agree with your alternative.

Empirical studies strongly ebb towards women freezing in that situation, in the immediate anyway.

It's a response that is hard wired and is automatic in the face of a danger, the brain is signaled to inhibit movement.

In fact, in the immediate, the brain is hard wired to not scream let alone shout murder.

It is evolutionary factors which underpin the response to a serious assault as opposed to what we think should happen when we reason it out.

[Aethelwulf]

And all this happened in a creaky bed on a wooden floor with someone upstairs listening for sounds? Yet you say there were none? Fantastic bit of luck for the killer I guess.

not really sure what you're going on about to be honest mike. You get all tetchy suggesting Mary was slashed with the sheet there, which is what Abby said and I agreed. Once Mary was killed what was he doing? probs moving about the room very silently cutting. Why is that 'all this'. If Kelly manged to get her arms up to hold him off and get those cuts I think she would have made a lot more noise. How do you know the bed was creaky? If beds were creaky why would it be out of the ordinary if anyone heard.
save you breath mikey i can see the way you operate with your juvenile antics with herlock on the stride thread.

[Michael W Richards]

above

And all this happened in a creaky bed on a wooden floor with someone upstairs listening for sounds? Yet you say there were none? Fantastic bit of luck for the killer I guess.

[Aethelwulf]

Perhaps the sheet got cut because the killer slashed at her?

Yes that's what we're saying

There are defensive wounds on her arm, and the forehead flaps covering her eyes were likely caused by slashes. But thats probably too wild an idea, huh?

If she'd put her arms up around he face to protect herself and get those cuts I think there would've been more noise and louder. I think those deep cuts on her arm are just the killer's mindless hacking as he goes around her body.

above

[Fleetwood Mac]

That, I think, will be a tough sell.
I agree some women are attacked with a knife the way the article suggests, and yes that may cause a superficial cut, but the victim will have been screaming and shouting which doesn't appear to be the case with Eddowes.
If a woman is resisting a knife attack, you can put money on it that she is screaming the house down.
None of the victims of JtR appear to have had the chance to cause any commotion, with the exception of Kelly.

I do concede the attack on Stride may better fit the suggestion offered here, which was different to Eddowes. But as for Eddowes being attacked with a knife while standing, I can't subscribe to that idea. For instance, look at Chapman's wound, it begins under one ear and continues around the neck, overlapping the start point, more like a spiral.
You can't do that with a victim stood up, she had to be on the ground and pulled up to a sitting position, all the while resisting? No, she was out cold for some reason.

It's only a possibility I'm presenting, Jon, as opposed to a sell.

What you may find interesting is that the immediate reaction of women who experience sexual assaults, is to freeze. Many, many articles have been put together on this, including the immediate reaction of the human brain and its response to an attack of that nature. That is based upon empirical evidence as opposed to you and I surmising that which could happen in such a situation.

Getting back to throat cuts:

Dr Phillips described a jagged cut on Annie and a clean cut on Liz. Dr Lewellyn and Dr Brown do not distinguish between the two as far as I can tell. If you have information to the contrary and I'd be interested to read it, Jon.

Based on what those modern day pathologists expect to see, that would ebb towards Liz being cut from behind and Annie being cut from the front.

It's a shame that the other two doctors do not describe whether or not the throat cuts to Catherine and Polly were clean or jagged.

[Michael W Richards]

Yeah that's a good bet. I can't see why else the sheet would have been cut through. It could have been that he knew her perhaps she woke saw him and he chucked the sheet over in an attempt to stifle her, the cut through the sheet like you say.

Perhaps the sheet got cut because the killer slashed at her? There are defensive wounds on her arm, and the forehead flaps covering her eyes were likely caused by slashes. But thats probably too wild an idea, huh?

[c.d.]

why? because i think that the evidence points to mary knowing her killer, and for whatever psychological reasons he didnt want to see her face and or didnt want her to see his face while he was killing her.

"Knowing" encompasses a very wide spectrum and would include having met him for the first time that very day.

I would think that if it were personal that he would absolutely want her to see him. She needs to understand before she dies that she got exactly what was coming to her for what she did to him.

c.d.

[Aethelwulf]

hi wulf
the corner of her bed sheet was sliced through a few times. I think theres a good possibility the ripper covered her face while she was passed out with it and cut her throat through the sheet.

why? because i think that the evidence points to mary knowing her killer, and for whatever psychological reasons he didnt want to see her face and or didnt want her to see his face while he was killing her.

perhaps this act lead to a few moments when Mary was able to cry out before he silenced her?

Yeah that's a good bet. I can't see why else the sheet would have been cut through. It could have been that he knew her perhaps she woke saw him and he chucked the sheet over in an attempt to stifle her, the cut through the sheet like you say.

[Abby Normal]

I don't see it as a problem. Something alerted Mary. The killer's movement in the room, on the bed. Perhaps he reached over with that awkward position if right handed, perhaps she saw the knife. Whatever it was, she had time to call out. He then silenced her. Maybe hand over her mouth first, or strangled. All he needed to do with the bed is lift the lower end very slightly and pivot it on the feet at the top to move it out. Doesn't need to have been noisy. He could have waited a while to do that if he started on the other side. Given what he was doing I suspect he went out of his way to make sure he made as little noise as possible.

hi wulf
the corner of her bed sheet was sliced through a few times. I think theres a good possibility the ripper covered her face while she was passed out with it and cut her throat through the sheet.

why? because i think that the evidence points to mary knowing her killer, and for whatever psychological reasons he didnt want to see her face and or didnt want her to see his face while he was killing her.

perhaps this act lead to a few moments when Mary was able to cry out before he silenced her?