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  • #91
    Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
    Hi Jeff,

    The J-Curve springs eternal, in this case at around 8 bystanders, but of course they are not available. You have mentioned Pipeman as a bystander, but where is Parcelman? My current thinking is that Pipeman was more of a predator watching the situation unfold than an innocent bystander. I have observed that in many of the proposed scenarios that arise from these discussions, the location and involvement of Parcelman is completely overlooked. An important omission, IMHO.

    Best regards, George
    Hi George,

    Schwartz's account is that Stride is alone, and B.S. is walking ahead of him when he assaults Stride seemingly with little interaction, but as some have suggested, it may have been in response to some exchange between them. Also, it is possible they interacted earlier in the evening, etc. No mention is made of anyone else, other than Pipeman (who gets noticed after he has passed B.S. and Stride). I suppose Parcelman and Pipeman could be one in the same, though where his parcel has gotten to would have to be explained. Otherwise, it seems like Parcel man has left the scene but I suppose one could argue he went unnoticed by Schwartz. I am not a fan of such lines if they can be avoided, though, as it makes up for missing evidence by just finding a way to fill it in. When there's a fairly simple explanation for Parcelman not being seen, like "he left", or even "he's Pipeman" (though the descriptions there don't match well if I recall), then I don't see the need to fall back on "he was there but isn't reported". Obviously I can't "prove" he wasn't there, just it's not my preference in terms of how I stack up the explanations. Others may arrange things in a different order.

    - Jeff

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    • #92
      Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

      Hi George,

      Schwartz's account is that Stride is alone, and B.S. is walking ahead of him when he assaults Stride seemingly with little interaction, but as some have suggested, it may have been in response to some exchange between them. Also, it is possible they interacted earlier in the evening, etc. No mention is made of anyone else, other than Pipeman (who gets noticed after he has passed B.S. and Stride). I suppose Parcelman and Pipeman could be one in the same, though where his parcel has gotten to would have to be explained. Otherwise, it seems like Parcel man has left the scene but I suppose one could argue he went unnoticed by Schwartz. I am not a fan of such lines if they can be avoided, though, as it makes up for missing evidence by just finding a way to fill it in. When there's a fairly simple explanation for Parcelman not being seen, like "he left", or even "he's Pipeman" (though the descriptions there don't match well if I recall), then I don't see the need to fall back on "he was there but isn't reported". Obviously I can't "prove" he wasn't there, just it's not my preference in terms of how I stack up the explanations. Others may arrange things in a different order.

      - Jeff
      The two options I think plausible are:
      1. Schwartz perhaps misread the seriousness of the argument (BS & Stride knew each other/were vaguely acquainted, perhaps earlier in the evening, and just had a bit of a scuffle) and the Stride willingly accompanied BS into the yard, where he attacked her;
      2. The scuffle was as Schwartz reported, Stride left her attacker for the apparent safety of the yard, where BS then walked silently up behind her, strangled with the scarf, cut her throat.
      I wouldn't rule out Pipeman being BS's friend either. In both cases I think the disturbance was probably Schwartz, not D and his cart, and JtR was already gone when D arrives. There was only one man being aggressive towards Stride at the right time and I see no reason to assume anyone other than BS was the killer.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

        Hi George,

        Schwartz's account is that Stride is alone, and B.S. is walking ahead of him when he assaults Stride seemingly with little interaction, but as some have suggested, it may have been in response to some exchange between them. Also, it is possible they interacted earlier in the evening, etc. No mention is made of anyone else, other than Pipeman (who gets noticed after he has passed B.S. and Stride). I suppose Parcelman and Pipeman could be one in the same, though where his parcel has gotten to would have to be explained. Otherwise, it seems like Parcel man has left the scene but I suppose one could argue he went unnoticed by Schwartz. I am not a fan of such lines if they can be avoided, though, as it makes up for missing evidence by just finding a way to fill it in. When there's a fairly simple explanation for Parcelman not being seen, like "he left", or even "he's Pipeman" (though the descriptions there don't match well if I recall), then I don't see the need to fall back on "he was there but isn't reported". Obviously I can't "prove" he wasn't there, just it's not my preference in terms of how I stack up the explanations. Others may arrange things in a different order.

        - Jeff
        Hi Jeff,

        Parcelman and Stride had probably been together since 11PM, last being seen at about 12:35 by Smith on the opposite side of the road to the club. The fact that Stride was next seen standing alone in the gateway suggests to me that she was waiting for someone, possibly for Parcelman to return from within the club or the WC. Alternatively, she may have got a job as a cleaner in the club for after the meeting, in which case Parcelman would have departed.

        Schwartz reported that Pipeman shouted a warning to BSman but, with the translation factor, he could very well have been shouting a warning at BSman. The fact that Strides protests against BSman were "not very loud" suggests to me that Schwartz was correct in his assessment of it being a domestic, not an attack. My current theory is that Pipeman was Jack and after warning off BSman he offers to escort Stride to the club door, kills her and is interrupted by the return of Parcelman who pursues him down Fairclough St as per the Echo report. I think he failed to come forward because he was a married man (rumoured to be an ex-employer).

        Coming back to the topic, my theory doesn't explain why no money was found on Stride's body. She was known to have earned sixpence, and if she had been with Parcelman all evening it would be reasonable to conclude that he would have paid for their drinks and food (and grapes?). However, mine is a variation of the interruption theory and the Diemshitz interruption theory doesn't explain the missing money either. The viable answer is that the murderer was not Jack and the motive was purely robbery.

        Best regards, George
        Last edited by GBinOz; 11-25-2022, 12:58 AM.
        “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

        “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

          Hi Jeff,

          Parcelman and Stride had probably been together since 11PM, last being seen at about 12:35 by Smith on the opposite side of the road to the club. The fact that Stride was next seen standing alone in the gateway suggests to me that she was waiting for someone, possibly for Parcelman to return from within the club or the WC. Alternatively, she may have got a job as a cleaner in the club for after the meeting, in which case Parcelman would have departed.

          Schwartz reported that Pipeman shouted a warning to BSman but, with the translation factor, he could very well have been shouting a warning at BSman. The fact that Strides protests against BSman were "not very loud" suggests to me that Schwartz was correct in his assessment of it being a domestic, not an attack. My current theory is that Pipeman was Jack and after warning off BSman he offers to escort Stride to the club door, kills her and is interrupted by the return of Parcelman who pursues him down Fairclough St as per the Echo report. I think he failed to come forward because he was a married man (rumoured to be an ex-employer).

          Coming back to the topic, my theory doesn't explain why no money was found on Stride's body. She was known to have earned sixpence, and if she had been with Parcelman all evening it would be reasonable to conclude that he would have paid for their drinks and food (and grapes?). However, mine is a variation of the interruption theory and the Diemshitz interruption theory doesn't explain the missing money either. The viable answer is that the murderer was not Jack and the motive was purely robbery.

          Best regards, George
          Hi George,

          I'm not sure Parcelman was the man seen with Stride earlier in the evening, but if he was, then that would be a long time for them to be together. If we go with that situation, then I think your idea that Stride was waiting for Parcelman to return makes sense, but whether he did or not we can only speculate. He may have returned at the time the crowd was around the yard, and if he was married, may have decided against going down to see what was going on (alternative to him showing up to chase off B.S.).

          The version where Pipeman shouts to B.S. is in the paper, and that's where Pipeman becomes Knifeman, and I think that report is less reliable than the police report, where it is B.S. who shouts at Pipeman (according to Schwartz). Given the two conflict on so many details, and the unreliability of the press in terms of details, I focus on the police summary of Schwartz's account myself. I also think the report about the chase is some mash up of the fellows from the club running off looking for the police, which got twisted into a tale of someone chasing the murderer. It sounds too much like the club members that ran down Fairclough (when they pick up Spooner) to me. The press can only report what someone says to them (in theory), but that doesn't mean what they were told is accurate and it could just be a rumour that circulated. Rumours, like the size of a fish, become less connected to reality the longer the time since the event.

          - Jeff

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

            The two options I think plausible are:
            1. Schwartz perhaps misread the seriousness of the argument (BS & Stride knew each other/were vaguely acquainted, perhaps earlier in the evening, and just had a bit of a scuffle) and the Stride willingly accompanied BS into the yard, where he attacked her;
            2. The scuffle was as Schwartz reported, Stride left her attacker for the apparent safety of the yard, where BS then walked silently up behind her, strangled with the scarf, cut her throat.
            I wouldn't rule out Pipeman being BS's friend either. In both cases I think the disturbance was probably Schwartz, not D and his cart, and JtR was already gone when D arrives. There was only one man being aggressive towards Stride at the right time and I see no reason to assume anyone other than BS was the killer.
            Hi Aethelwulf,

            I think from what we have available, B.S. is the most plausible killer of Stride, with Pipeman a fairly distant second in my view. I think it may be possible that B.S. and Stride had spent some time together at a pub earlier, and either she disappeared on him or they had an earlier disagreement and she left (hence his anger towards her when he finds her outside the club). From what Schwartz relates, there was very little interaction between B.S. and Stride before he starts throwing her about, and it would make more sense to me if they had some prior interaction that put them in a "mood" towards each other.

            I can't see Pipeman and B.S. being known to each other. B.S. enters the area from the other direction, and Pipeman is already there. I see no reason to see why they should be acquainted myself.

            - Jeff

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

              Hi Aethelwulf,

              I think from what we have available, B.S. is the most plausible killer of Stride, with Pipeman a fairly distant second in my view. I think it may be possible that B.S. and Stride had spent some time together at a pub earlier, and either she disappeared on him or they had an earlier disagreement and she left (hence his anger towards her when he finds her outside the club). From what Schwartz relates, there was very little interaction between B.S. and Stride before he starts throwing her about, and it would make more sense to me if they had some prior interaction that put them in a "mood" towards each other.

              I can't see Pipeman and B.S. being known to each other. B.S. enters the area from the other direction, and Pipeman is already there. I see no reason to see why they should be acquainted myself.

              - Jeff
              hi jeff
              totally agree with this and your previous post. good analysis
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

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