The increasing acceptance of Martha Tabram...

[Michael W Richards]

That (or something like it) works for me......

So he kills with a single cut without mutilating later on, and then gluts himself with mutilation even later? Where is this desire to remain in control you are speaking of?

A single serial killer theory seems to rely on a morphing killer...which isn't indicated by the evidence unless you first decide you are looking at serial killings.

If you have very different characteristics for some murders within an almost arbitrarily created set or group. supposedly grouped by a single killer, its more probable that you've made an error with your grouping than it is that one person had multiple killer personalities...assuming they should share characteristics as a group, of course.

Cheers

[RockySullivan]

Tabram might have been a personal attack, considering the recurring witness pearly poll. But the bayonet wounds and the story about the soldiers would be quote a coincidence.

[Steve S]

Haha, no, no.

There definitely was a serial killer at work among these women.

Here's a construct; I do not say it definitely happened this way, but that it may have.

Say Tabram was the catalyst. She got hold of someone already insecure and laughed at his erectile dysfunction. He kills her in a crime of passion - hence the thirty-nine stabs - and also attacks her throat.

He goes off in a daze, but quickly comes to find he likes what he's done and wants to do more of it. But he resolves to be more methodical about it next time. Something as simple as this could be the catalyst: that Tabram was a ragekill, and the initial stimuli for the subsequent murders, but that her killer was dissatisfied by the end result, and wanted to remain more in command of himself with subsequent events.

That (or something like it) works for me......

[Tom_Wescott]

I beg to differ, Tom.

She was a prostitute? They were easy targets for street crime.

She was killed in the early hours? Again, a prime time for such an attack.

She was strangled? A common way of subduing someone, I would've thought. As is the using of a bladed weapon to commit murder.

What we have to focus on is the nature of the murder: the random, frenzied stabbing which indicated no kind of deliberate mutilation observed from the other victims, but more of an uncontrollable rage. The fact that the murder weapon(s) was not the type of knife used later on but purportedly a pen-knife and bayonet, the latter of which is congruent with Tabram's soliciting of soldier clients that night. It all points to Tabram going off with a soldier boy, something kicking off between them (a taunting of her client's manhood?), and her paying the price for it. The theory that Tabram was a 'trial-run' or that the Ripper got the taste for it, then moved to cleanly dispatching his victims with throat-slashing and performing evisceration some weeks later, flies in the face of the facts.

Hi Harry, I agree the knives used on Tabram were different to that which was used on Nichols. Other than that, it seems you and I are working from a different set of facts.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Harry D]

There's an awful lot more than that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I beg to differ, Tom.

She was a prostitute? They were easy targets for street crime.

She was killed in the early hours? Again, a prime time for such an attack.

She was strangled? A common way of subduing someone, I would've thought. As is the using of a bladed weapon to commit murder.

What we have to focus on is the nature of the murder: the random, frenzied stabbing which indicated no kind of deliberate mutilation observed from the other victims, but more of an uncontrollable rage. The fact that the murder weapon(s) was not the type of knife used later on but purportedly a pen-knife and bayonet, the latter of which is congruent with Tabram's soliciting of soldier clients that night. It all points to Tabram going off with a soldier boy, something kicking off between them (a taunting of her client's manhood?), and her paying the price for it. The theory that Tabram was a 'trial-run' or that the Ripper got the taste for it, then moved to cleanly dispatching his victims with throat-slashing and performing evisceration some weeks later, flies in the face of the facts.

[Tom_Wescott]

On the other, there's still just something about it that I find offputting. Something about the single, shallow cut to the throat: every other victim, to my knowledge, had their throats cut across twice, and deeply, including Eddowes an hour later.

At a stretch, I would say that Tabram is more likely to be a Ripper victim than Stride.

I agree. The cut to Tabram's throat was far more like Nichols' and Chapman's than was Stride's.

Yours truly

Tom Wescott

[RockySullivan]

There are indeed 3 DD. A realistic possibility exists that there were at least 3 people involved in the murders of the 4 women above, and if you factor in Stride as a standalone, then you have 4.

I for one don't discount the possibility that a serial killer killed the first 2 in the Canonical Group, that Liz Stride was killed in anger, and that perhaps...Kate and Marys murders could be connected by person or persons...or group even. I think some murders within the Group were made by people intentionally trying to create a scenario they thought would be expected. I think the lost soul in room 13 is evidence of that...even with all that destruction its impossible to discern the true intent of the actions. Some are incomplete. Some seemingly emotional, like the facial slashing...not stabbing or cutting, like in Kates nose....slashing.

On the other hand, I truly believe that Polly and Annie met the real Ripper of that Fall, and I think the only reason there wasn't a basketful of victims to follow those was because he was unable to continue. This allows me to accept that perhaps they really did institutionalize someone that Fall for at least some of the murders, and that perhaps we aren't privy to the real dates of those activities.

Cheers

The was literally a parcel full of victims !

[Michael W Richards]

There are in fact three separate groupings possible within the 'Canonical Five':

Nichols and Chapman

Eddowes

Kelly


Eddowes looks to be the bridge here. She shares with the first group the fact she was killed in a public space; she shares with the latter the fact that her face was mutilated, and potentially 'personalized' by the killer.

I've long felt Eddowes represented a transitional form of the Ripper murder, though from what and to what I cannot say.

There are indeed 3 DD. A realistic possibility exists that there were at least 3 people involved in the murders of the 4 women above, and if you factor in Stride as a standalone, then you have 4.

I for one don't discount the possibility that a serial killer killed the first 2 in the Canonical Group, that Liz Stride was killed in anger, and that perhaps...Kate and Marys murders could be connected by person or persons...or group even. I think some murders within the Group were made by people intentionally trying to create a scenario they thought would be expected. I think the lost soul in room 13 is evidence of that...even with all that destruction its impossible to discern the true intent of the actions. Some are incomplete. Some seemingly emotional, like the facial slashing...not stabbing or cutting, like in Kates nose....slashing.

On the other hand, I truly believe that Polly and Annie met the real Ripper of that Fall, and I think the only reason there wasn't a basketful of victims to follow those was because he was unable to continue. This allows me to accept that perhaps they really did institutionalize someone that Fall for at least some of the murders, and that perhaps we aren't privy to the real dates of those activities.

Cheers

[Defective Detective]

Haha, no, no.

There definitely was a serial killer at work among these women.

Here's a construct; I do not say it definitely happened this way, but that it may have.

Say Tabram was the catalyst. She got hold of someone already insecure and laughed at his erectile dysfunction. He kills her in a crime of passion - hence the thirty-nine stabs - and also attacks her throat.

He goes off in a daze, but quickly comes to find he likes what he's done and wants to do more of it. But he resolves to be more methodical about it next time. Something as simple as this could be the catalyst: that Tabram was a ragekill, and the initial stimuli for the subsequent murders, but that her killer was dissatisfied by the end result, and wanted to remain more in command of himself with subsequent events.

[GUT]

G'day DD

I am pretty well convinced that Nichols and Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly were murdered by the same man.

Sorry I'd misunderstood I thought you were arguing that the other four were killed by three different hands and as you had referenced the C5 I was trying to ascertain where you placed Liz, now I understand [I hope].

[Defective Detective]

Where's Long Liz. She must either fit in with one of the other groups or make a fourth group.

I can't make up my mind on her.

On the one hand, I think Colin Roberts did a pretty damn good job showing just what an enormous coincidence it would be for three murders by three separate hands to have occurred on the night of the 'Double Event' (when taking into consideration the other domestic that evening) using the English murder statistics.

On the other, there's still just something about it that I find offputting. Something about the single, shallow cut to the throat: every other victim, to my knowledge, had their throats cut across twice, and deeply, including Eddowes an hour later. I still think we might be looking at Michael Kidney in it. Even if Diemschutz interrupted her murder as in the orthodox version of events, I feel like the killer would at least have made that initial cut as deep as in the other women, assuming the same man made them all.

I don't want to commit myself to saying one way or the other, except to say that I feel that we'd do well at least to set Long Liz to one side. The strongest case that could be built would probably be built on Chapman and possible Nichols, where there's no real dispute about whose hand was at work; we can then factor in the other murders as necessary.

At a stretch, I would say that Tabram is more likely to be a Ripper victim than Stride. But I would also be comfortable with both or neither, where I am pretty well convinced that Nichols and Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly were murdered by the same man.

[GUT]

There are in fact three separate groupings possible within the 'Canonical Five':

Nichols and Chapman

Eddowes

Kelly


Eddowes looks to be the bridge here. She shares with the first group the fact she was killed in a public space; she shares with the latter the fact that her face was mutilated, and potentially 'personalized' by the killer.

I've long felt Eddowes represented a transitional form of the Ripper murder, though from what and to what I cannot say.

Where's Long Liz. She must either fit in with one of the other groups or make a fourth group.

[Defective Detective]

There are in fact three separate groupings possible within the 'Canonical Five':

Nichols and Chapman

Eddowes

Kelly


Eddowes looks to be the bridge here. She shares with the first group the fact she was killed in a public space; she shares with the latter the fact that her face was mutilated, and potentially 'personalized' by the killer.

I've long felt Eddowes represented a transitional form of the Ripper murder, though from what and to what I cannot say.

[Michael W Richards]

There are only three victims that can be definitively linked (Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes). This is because their modus operandi were nearly identifical.

As for the other victims we can only speculate. That Stride and Kelly are regarded as canon shows our reverence for myth over evidence. There is no evidence that Stride and Kelly were murdered by the same person who killed Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes. Those who want to include them have their own plausible but unproven reasons why the murders were slightly different.

Serial killers don't always use the same methodology - this is another myth. So it's possible (again not proven) that this serial killer might slain three or as many as 11.

Nicely summarized Richard, I would only add to the above that your list of three "definitively linked" victims are not so easily grouped. There are a great many features about the Eddowes murder that match closely the features seen in the first 2 murders, however, there is a noticeable lack of skill and knowledge by the killer in the Mitre Square murder, something uncommon with the first 2 Canonicals killed. And circumstantially, we have no idea in reality why Kate was where she was when she met her murderer, when we do know why the first 2 women were out...they were soliciting.

Many ignore the issue of active solicitation in the killers process, but for my money a male stranger has no better chance of getting somewhere dark with a female stranger than by utilizing and taking advantage of the forced circumstances of a prostitute without any money. She takes strangers into dark places routinely...its almost like he gets invited.

Cheers

[Tom_Wescott]

I agree. I have a hard time buying Tabram as a Ripper victim and don't understand the clamour to have her included into the canon. If Tabram had been a 'trial run', as some argue, would JTR have really moved onto an entirely new MO which focused on abdominal mutilations only three weeks later? The Ripper was living out some kind of depraved fantasy with the canonical five murders (give or take Stride), as defined by the post-mortem signature of the attacks, something notably lacking in Tabram's frenzied attack.

And then some people argue that Tabram might have offended the Ripper, which would explain the ferocity of the attack, which is purely speculative and twisting the facts to suit the argument.

Finally, the "rarity" of such knife crimes has also been put forward as a reason for considering Tabram as a JTR victim. On that basis, you would also have to include McKenzie, Coles, et al. as Ripper victims.

Tabram only has two things going for her: the crime location and the positioning of the body. The rest of the so-called 'similarities' between her and the canonical five are so negligible as to be insignificant.

There's an awful lot more than that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott