Not 'Why "Unfortunates" ' but why not others?

[Cogidubnus]

Schwartz was allegedly a Hungarian...did he come to Britain as a refugee (were there "pogroms" in the Austro-Hungarian empire at the time?) ... I'd guess in non-religious circles, a shared experience of flight from oppression might engender just as strong a fellowship...which might well be misunderstood by a native British commentator...

All the best

Dave

[Fleetwood Mac]

Do you think BS Man existed, or could Schwartz be a "put-up" witness (deliberately chosen as a non-English speaker) designed to distract attention away from the socialist club and towards an obviously gentile type? There are so many questions on these boards about Schwartz...I really wonder...

Dave

Well, Dave, there were a lot of people milling about. Going in and out of the club, Brown, Mortimer, PC Smith etc; and Schwartz alone sees/hears the commotion. Not impossible, I suppose, as it would have all been over within what? a minute?

Also, Stride is thrown down to the ground yet no brusies/scrapes on her knees. I suppose she could have blocked her fall with her hands.

The one thing that does go in Schwartz's favour is that apparently an ID took place, and Lawende could not have been construed as the only person who ever had a good look at the murderer (purely because to arrive at the statement, the witness must have seen Jack red handed).

Having said all of the above: we're not aware of a witness disproving Schwartz's statement, so perhaps we need to take him at face value?

Is the suggestion that Jack was a club member, or that someone in the club witnessed the event, knew of BS Man, and would not give him up to gentile justice? I would have thought, although could quite easily be wide of the mark, that those in the club were of a less religious persuasion; and indeed many not religious at all.

[Cogidubnus]

Do you think BS Man existed, or could Schwartz be a "put-up" witness (deliberately chosen as a non-English speaker) designed to distract attention away from the socialist club and towards an obviously gentile type? There are so many questions on these boards about Schwartz...I really wonder...

Dave

[Fleetwood Mac]

There will have been other women to attack late at night.

I suppose it leaves two options:

a) He made a beeline for prostitutes out of some religious or vengeful purpose.

b) Prostitutes alone were willing to go into a private corner.

Which may be significant with regard to BS Man.

If Jack was the former then it supports BS Man being the killer in that prostitutes were the aim, as opposed to any woman prepared to go into a dark corner.

If Jack was the latter then it would seem that BS Man wasn't Jack.

[HelenaWojtczak]

The simple answer for me is that the killer identified his prospective victims in exactly the same way a punter would have identified a prostitute at that time: by her body language, attitude and appearance.

Any woman walking with a purpose and minding her own business would soon have made it clear if a stranger's attentions were unwelcome, whereas an unfortunate desperate enough to be out begging or selling herself for doss money in the early hours could not have been too choosy.

I was just composing a reply to this thread then came across Caz's reply, and she appears to have read my mind! Agree 100%.

[Beowulf]

...perhaps a variant on Charon's obol or the ferrymans pennies...*

Was it the Eddowes case where the significant other checked out the body for a secret stash and failed to find it? (Yes ok Lynn, there may be other reasons, hence my proviso)...

All the best

Dave

* ie He perhaps saw himself as the ferryman???

oh that is REALLY creepy!

Well, that'll have me thinking for a long while of that one.

I think it was Eddowes.

I think it was John Kelly who checked for her money in her bonnet, as she had none when he left her and he even pawned his boots for her. He certainly had the right to the money, at any rate. I don't think it was due to heartlessness, he was with her years. I think he loved her.

[Cogidubnus]

Personally I think it's possible he discussed terms sufficient enough to get up close, sliced them and then relieved them of any proceeds from previous punters...If there was just one "Jack" I think this might be part of his ritual...perhaps a variant on Charon's obol or the ferrymans pennies...*

Was it the Eddowes case where the significant other checked out the body for a secret stash and failed to find it? (Yes ok Lynn, there may be other reasons, hence my proviso)...

All the best

Dave

* ie He perhaps saw himself as the ferryman???

[Beowulf]

Hmmm...what do you think Barbara?

Dave

Lol I honestly don't know. No biz? Did they pay up front to them? Because there should've been money then, but I guess it also could indicate he NEVER approached as a, hey what are you guys calling it, a 'punter'?

Maybe he just walked up and attacked?

[Cogidubnus]

Cheapskate Jack

and why was there no money found on those working girls?

Hmmm...what do you think Barbara?

Dave

[Beowulf]

I meant the risk of the killer being seen with a victim such as with Lawende's sighting. However, this time the witness gets a far better sighting of the JtR than Lawende, thus the killer backs out of his transaction with the victim. Im just putting out scenario's as to why the Chapman killing happened so late.

Oh. I think he was out late to catch the straggler, while the street was empty, but it's just my guess. Does make you wonder what he did prior to all these things, sleeping? Drinking? Waiting? Wondering? Working up?

and why was there no money found on those working girls?

[jason_c]

But who could identify the killer? It would seem no one could come forward and say they knew who JTR was, otherwise wouldn't they? There was a reward out, and everyone was poor. Did I misunderstand you?

My question is when approaching a prostitute, was it customary to pay up front? I never have read any of the girls found had money on them. Were they robbed? Did JTR take the money? If there was no money found it would indicate they literally just started out, either again or for the night, because the other money had been deposited somewhere, whether it a bar or whatnot, or robbed. Could someone else take the money and then call the police? Just thinking out loud here.

Personally can't imagine he had any interest in their money, but then again, I've never read of any mention of money on them.

I meant the risk of the killer being seen with a victim such as with Lawende's sighting. However, this time the witness gets a far better sighting of JtR than Lawende, thus the killer backs out of his transaction with the victim. Im just putting out scenario's as to why the Chapman killing happened so late.

[Cogidubnus]

it was offered on the 30th of Sept.

Ah...I get you

If he were only negotiating a fee how would he be identified as the killer?

Quite

Thanks

Dave

[Beowulf]

If he were only negotiating a fee how would he be identified as the killer?

[Beowulf]

Hi Barbara

At the time of Annie Chapman? Was there? Offered by whom?

puzzled
Dave

Well at the time of Chapman no, it was offered on the 30th of Sept. I see. At any rate who would not come forth to say they knew the killer if they could pass him by on the street and recognize him...'whilst in the middle of negotiating a fee someone walked by who would have identified the killer. This would lead to a client suddenly fleeing'

[Cogidubnus]

But who could identify the killer? It would seem no one could come forward and say they knew who JTR was, otherwise wouldn't they? There was a reward out, and everyone was poor.

Hi Barbara

At the time of Annie Chapman? Was there? Offered by whom?

puzzled
Dave