Who is the most Canonial non-Canonical? POLL

[DVV]

Hi Adam,

Not sure it's a good point...See the post above yours...
Indeed, the noted "reluctance" of Emma to describe the assault comes from Annie and Mary.
Another objection is that once she would have decided to lie, she would understandably serve the same story to everybody - at least on that night.

Amitiés,
David

[Uncle Jack]

Hi Uncle Jack,

Please quote the rest of the sentence or it gets a totally different meaning. I can see why she would want to lie to a complete stranger as George Haslip, but not the women at 18 George Street where she had lived for 1½ year.

I have to admit you have a good point there.

All the best Ditlew

[DVV]

I can see why she would want to lie to a complete stranger as George Haslip, but not the women at 18 George Street where she had lived for 1½ year.
Ditlew

Could be a good point, Ditlew, but we know she lied to Mary Russell and Annie Lee by omission.

Amitiés,
David

ps : sorry to insist...I admit I have a soft spot for pre-canonical cases.

[ditlew]

Hi Uncle Jack,

Please quote the rest of the sentence or it gets a totally different meaning. I can see why she would want to lie to a complete stranger as George Haslip, but not the women at 18 George Street where she had lived for 1½ year.

Best Regards,
Ditlew

[ditlew]

Hi DVV,

1. There will always be people that doubt, both then and now. The moon landing, the death of Elvis, the Earth flatness .. sometimes they are right sometimes they are not.

2. As I stated in my previos post I not sure that we really can conclude that what happend to Emma was that extraordinary at all.

But really .. I hear you and I know and respect that you have studied these cases alot, but I don't agree with some of your conclusions as you know, no disrespect intended at all.

Best Regards,
Ditlew

[DVV]

Emma Smith had no reason to lie about prostituting herself, because it was not a crime in 1888....soliciting was.

"Emma Smith was entered in the hospital records as married and a charwoman. In reality she was a friendless widow who supported herself at least partly by prostitution."
Philip Sugden (not me, nor Stan...)

Amitiés,
David

[Uncle Jack]

Regarding Emma lying, I personally find it unlikely that she would feel the need of lying to people

Good day Ditlew,

It is commonly known that when prostitutes got themselves into a situation such as this; ie they are attacked by a client, they would often find themselves sent to the workhouse for weeks, if not months. That in itself would be enough reason for Smith to create the story of the gang attack, in my opinion, which would have been in her mind after seeing Hayes that day who had been punched by a gang.

[DVV]

DVV : Regarding your 2 questions from yesterday, I really don't know..

Ditlew

Hi again Ditlew,

Hhhhmmmm...at least the first question is easy to answer, isn't it ?
Wilson hided the fact that she brang the guy home, and Bierman revealed it.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

Hi Ditlew,

one thing I want to add: "doubts" about Emma's story are nothing new. Just check Begg and Sugden. You can also go back to Dew.

And once again, no : what happened to Emma was extraordinary. Even for Whitechapel 1888.

Indeed, she's the first case in the WM file for that very reason.

Amitiés,
David

[ditlew]

Hi All,

Regarding Emma lying, I personally find it unlikely that she would feel the need of lying to people at the place where she had lived for 1 ½ years. I find it hard to believe that they didn't know she was a prostitude. I might be wrong of course, but it is currently my beliefe that she didn't.

From my understanding the statement to George Haslip was given while she was on the border of coma, hence I give her the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the time of the attack + we don't know the length of the attack. I don't think they would have done 'it' in the steets but have taken her to one of the nearby alleys e.g. behinds the Chocolate factory. Even if they didn't history has show again and again that people don't want to get involved and does notthing to help victims in even deadly attacks.

I don't find it hard to believe that these kind of attacks would happen then, they do today, and I think Whitechapel ano 1888 was a worse place than many of the places these kind of attacks has happened today.

I also don't find it hard to believe that the police hadn't heard of these kind of attacks before. Emma protested herself about going to the hospital and hadn't she been mortally wounded I don't think we would have know about the attack at all.

@DVV : Regarding your 2 questions from yesterday, I really don't know..

Best Regards,
Ditlew

[DVV]

Wow...yet another liar is unmasked by Ripperologists

Emma Smith had no reason to lie about prostituting herself, because it was not a crime in 1888....soliciting was. And Emma Smith is lying, even though a witness testifies to being assaulted in the same place only hours before (oooh and the police didnt see that either) and even though a similar attack had taken place in the same area in December 1887.

Hi Sox,

incredible post...
No reason to lie ?
I suppose you think women have no pride, no dignity at all.
I suppose your are of opinion that Bierman lied to the press, while Wilson was telling the truth.
As to what happened to Margaret Hayes in 1887, it has little in common with the awful rape of April 1888.

Amitiés,
David

[smezenen]

I voted for the Pinchin Street Torso because I see this type of mutilation as a natural progression from Mary Kelly in that JTR learned with her murder that an indoor killing gives him more time with the body, its then not a far step from killing them in their room to killing them in his room where he can spend even more time. He now must dispose of the body; he can’t just leave it to be found in his room. So he cuts it up and tosses it into a river (Jackson), under a bridge (Pinchin Street), in the unfinished basement of a police building (Whitehall).

P.S. My vote for the Pinchin street Torso is actuall a vote for all the torso killings as I believe they were all by the same hand.

[Uncle Jack]

Emma Smith had no reason to lie about prostituting herself.

Even though being a prostitute was common in the East End some of the women may have found it degrading, shameful and embarrassing which would give Emma a reason to lie, to save face so to speak. Add to that the fact that admitting to being a prostitute would surely have landed her in the Whitechapel Workhouse for many weeks if not months. So there was a motive there for lying.

[Sox]

Wow...yet another liar is unmasked by Ripperologists

Emma Smith had no reason to lie about prostituting herself, because it was not a crime in 1888....soliciting was. And Emma Smith is lying, even though a witness testifies to being assaulted in the same place only hours before (oooh and the police didnt see that either) and even though a similar attack had taken place in the same area in December 1887.

[sdreid]

There were police in and around the area where Smith was attacked and none saw any gangs or heard anything. Her story is highly suspect and the why is open to question. She could have just been hiding her prostitution or covering up for the man who did it because she knew him and was either afraid or didn't want to be responsible for his hanging.