Who is the most Canonial non-Canonical? POLL

[ditlew]

DVV,

Strange argument...

Is it more painful to articulate "widow" than "married woman" ?

Would they have asked her details about her sad fall into prostitution before taking care of her health ?

You misquote me and hence are lying? The remark you quote were regarding her talk with the women NOT the doctor, come on.

Best Regards,
Ditlew

[Uncle Jack]

Wasn't it stated somewhere (can't remember where, maybe someone more in the know can tell) that the spot where Emma claimed she was attacked had a police officer on the spot or something along those lines, at the time Emma claimed the attack took place? It was either a P.C or maybe a watchman or something.

[DVV]

And THAT is how you conclude that she was lying in omission?! Could she e.g. just have been in extreme pain and just wanted to be left alone?? Ditlew

Strange argument...

Is it more painful to articulate "widow" than "married woman" ?

Would they have asked her details about her sad fall into prostitution before taking care of her health ?

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

It hasn't been countered, Ditlew. It can't be.

Amitiés,
David

[ditlew]

DVV,

Ance once again, she was recorded as a married woman, working as a charwoman.

Which is neither an indication, nor an evidence, but a proof that Smith and/or her friend(s) have hided to the hospital the fact that she was a widow supporting herself by prostitution.

You go in circles, that argument has already been countered in an earlier post by myself.

Best Regards,
Ditlew

[ditlew]

Hi DVV,

She actually gave more details to the doctor.

And THAT is how you conclude that she was lying in omission?! Could she e.g. just have been in extreme pain and just wanted to be left alone?? I can see multible possibilities for her to tell the doctor more details than the girls.

I have been a witness myself to a crime, and I for one can tell you that the first statement I made to those arround me was quite shorter and less detailed than the one I gave the police, once I had had a chance to settle down. We know notthing about her lying in omission. It is pure speculation and not even a good one if I may say so.

Best Regards,
Ditlew

[DVV]

Ance once again, she was recorded as a married woman, working as a charwoman.

Which is neither an indication, nor an evidence, but a proof that Smith and/or her friend(s) have hided to the hospital the fact that she was a widow supporting herself by prostitution.

Perhaps Sox, who said Smith didn't lie and had no reason to do so, will provide us with an unknown Hospital document registering Smith as an infortunate widow.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

How do we know that?
Ditlew

From the inquest, Ditlew.
Check the Sourcebook, p 5:

"Smith, who seemed unwilling to go into details, did not describe the men nor give any further account of the occurrence to witness [Mary Russell]."
She actually gave more details to the doctor.
Worth giving it a thought, no ?

Amitiés,
David

[ditlew]

Hi DVV,

but we know she lied to Mary Russell and Annie Lee by omission.

How do we know that? I'm not gonna be satisfied by a speculation, 'know' indicates a fact.

Wikipedia about 'lying by omission' : One lies by omission by omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception.


Best Regards,
Ditlew

[Roy Corduroy]

Stan, as my vote indicates, I agree with you in exploring the possibility she was attacked by the serial killer. This was a shocking crime commited at night upon one of the unfortunates of the rookeries.

Roy

[sdreid]

Although I doubt that Smith was actually attacked by a gang, that doesn't preclude the possibility that she was and that the perpetrator of the mortal wound was Jack as a member of that band. He would not be the only serial killer to commit his first murder as part of a gang before striking out on his own.

[cknapp]

what about carrie brown?

If I'm correct, you made a parallel with an American case...

Yes: One, which occurred in my home town of Tampa, Florida, in 1994.

I'll recount it later, this evening, David.

[DVV]

Hi Colin,

I remember your posts on this subject.
If I'm correct, you made a parallel with an American case...
It was a fascinating suggestion, applauded by many posters.

Amitiés,
David

It is commonly known that when prostitutes got themselves into a situation such as this; ie they are attacked by a client, they would often find themselves sent to the workhouse for weeks, if not months.

The extent, to which Parish/Union Workhouses might have been used as surrogate prisons for those who had committed petty crimes, is quite likely 'overblown'. After all; there was no interconnection between England's so-called 'Poor Law', and its multi-faceted criminal law.

That said; it is distinctly possible, and perhaps somewhat likely that persons accused of committing petty crimes, while destitute, were sent to the local Parish/Union Workhouse for a period of two-to-three months.

This was perhaps the very thing that Emma Smith may have wished to avoid: A three-month 'sabbatical' in the Whitechapel Union Workhouse. This being regardless of the legitimacy or illegitimacy of such concerns, given the circumstances of her particular situation.

Like a child caught 'red-handed' in an act of misbehavior, Smith may have been compelled to lie; even if, for all the wrong reasons.

Had any of the other victims of the so-called 'Whitechapel Murders' lived long enough to recount the circumstances of the assaults, to which they succumbed; I am quite certain that each of them would have been ... 'minding her own business', in an area, in which the reasons for her presence would not have been called into question.

And Emma Smith is lying, even though a witness testifies to being assaulted in the same place only hours before (oooh and the police didnt see that either) and even though a similar attack had taken place in the same area in December 1887.

"… even though a witness testifies to being assaulted in the same place only hours before (oooh and the police didnt see that either) …" (my emphasis)

"… and even though a similar attack had taken place in the same area in December 1887." (my emphasis)

The intersection of Burdett Road / Farrance Street, Parish of St. Anne Limehouse, was (and still is) approximately two miles from the "the pathway opposite No. 10 Brick Lane", ... in the Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields.

… It is therefore quite remarkable that the murder-site 'epicenter', in this case, not only affords both physical possibility and 'Ripperesque' practicality; but actually coincides with a prominent feature in the landscape of the 'Whitechapel Murders': The very spot, on which many surmise that Emma Smith was confronted by her alleged assailants.


Figure 9: Murder-Site Mean-Center (i.e. Murder-Site 'Epicenter') (Click to Enlarge in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

Most accounts of the circumstances, in which Emma Smith was allegedly assaulted by a group of ruffians, on the morning of 3 April 1888, include references to 'Osborn Street' and/or the vicinity of a 'cocoa factory', with regard to the location of the attack. The references are generally vague and somewhat difficult to comprehend, as the thoroughfare 'Osborn Street' became 'Brick Lane' as it progressed northward through its intersection with Wentworth Street (west) / Old Montague Street (east), before passing the east side of Taylor Brothers' Chocolate & Mustard Factory. As the northwestern extremity of Osborn Street, i.e. the southwest corner of its junction with Wentworth Street, was the point at which it was most closely 'connected' to the 'cocoa factory', it has perhaps been deemed to have been the most likely venue for the assault.

However, a very specific reference to the location of the attack was included in a report filed by Inspector Edmund Reid, Metropolitan Police Force, H Division (date unknown): "The offence had been committed on the pathway opposite No. 10 Brick Lane". Ironically, this assertion was contradictory to one made earlier in the same report: "She had been assaulted and robbed in Osborne (sic.) Street". But the specificity of the "opposite No. 10 Brick Lane" reference should not be ignored; especially in light of the distinct possibility that all 'primary' references to 'Osborn Street' were actually intended to describe the point, at which Smith first encountered the alleged group of men, who then followed her north into Brick Lane.

It would seem unlikely therefore, that the murder-site 'epicenter' actually coincides with the spot that Emma Smith identified as being the location, in which she was confronted by her alleged assailants. In fact, if Reid's 'Brick Lane' reference is assumed to be accurate, then the murder-site 'epicenter' lies approximately thirty eight yards southeast of the spot, on which Smith claimed she was attacked.

"the pathway opposite No. 10 Brick Lane"
Northeastern Exterior of Taylor Brothers' Chocolate & Mustard Factory, West Side of Brick Lane, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 4' 15.15" West
Latitude: 51° 31' 3.02" North

In any case, the murder-site 'epicenter' is in remarkably close proximity to the spot, on which the 'Whitechapel Murders' saga purportedly began. If nothing else; the murder of Emma Smith set the 'stage' for the six murders that followed, within the 'Whitechapel' series. But, the purported location of Smith's encounter with her alleged assailants notwithstanding; the intersection of Wentworth Street / Old Montague Street and Osborn Street / Brick Lane is nonetheless a prominent feature in the landscape of the 'Whitechapel Murders'.

This crossroads of two major thoroughfares (four 'named' streets) was a pivotal point in the boundary that separated the Civil Parishes of Christ Church Spitalfields and St. Mary Whitechapel. The boundary ran easterly along Wentworth Street, from Middlesex Street to Brick Lane; and then northerly along Brick Lane to a point just beyond Chicksand Street; and then easterly again, to its termination as a 'T'-shaped junction with the boundary of The Hamlet of Mile End New Town. As such, the northwestern quadrant of the intersection was situated within the Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields; whereas the remaining three quadrants lay within the Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel. Hence a subtle, but very significant difference between the aforementioned distinctions of the murder-site 'epicenter' and the 'more likely' purported location of Emma Smith's encounter with her alleged assailants.

Murder-Site Mean-Center (i.e. Murder-Site 'Epicenter')
Southwest Corner of the Intersection of Wentworth Street and Osborn Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel, County of Middlesex

"the pathway opposite No. 10 Brick Lane"
Northeastern Exterior of Taylor Brothers' Chocolate & Mustard Factory, West Side of Brick Lane, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields, County of Middlesex