How Should the Victims Be Remembered?

[Canopy]

QUOTE]I'm of the opinion that the best they would want is for some clever person to name their killer rather than any statue!!!

I'm not sure that I agree with you C.

I think that 'Jack' was probably proud of the murders -he never tried to hide the bodies, but was quite theatrical in presenting them for maximum horror (especially Mary Kelly). I am quite sure that he was proud of outwitting the Police and cheating the gallows, as well as all the press coverage.

But the rub is, he could not enjoy his fame and it's his victims who live on for us in History -not him. Infact, with all our theories we often ascribe his crimes to the wrong person.

So whilst I would love to know who the Ripper was, I also think that it's quite just to cheat him of his name becoming famous for evermore. There is no way to punish him now.

I should love to see Mary Kelly's identity restored though -[/QUOTE]

I will be honest in saying that I've never thought of it your way...but now you give it to me almost want to smile! GOOD (almost!) he went unknown throughout his entire life and remains some "nobody" to this day!!! ...Still would love to know though! Mary Kelly is a sad state of affairs as there's no way to know how she looked to give her poor body an identity...SHORT OF digging her up and using her skull as a re-construction tool can't see any other way and, being as she met a sorry end, wouldn't ever support that notion! She is quite alive in our minds despite the awful state of her body and, as far as I'm thinking, needs no statue to be remembered...just my opinion!;-)

All the best,

C.

[Rubyretro]

QUOTE]I'm of the opinion that the best they would want is for some clever person to name their killer rather than any statue!!![/QUOTE]

I'm not sure that I agree with you C.

I think that 'Jack' was probably proud of the murders -he never tried to hide the bodies, but was quite theatrical in presenting them for maximum horror (especially Mary Kelly). I am quite sure that he was proud of outwitting the Police and cheating the gallows, as well as all the press coverage.

But the rub is, he could not enjoy his fame and it's his victims who live on for us in History -not him. Infact, with all our theories we often ascribe his crimes to the wrong person.

So whilst I would love to know who the Ripper was, I also think that it's quite just to cheat him of his name becoming famous for evermore. There is no way to punish him now.

I should love to see Mary Kelly's identity restored though -

[curious4]

Memorial

I feel very strongly about these women, both as victims (how many other murder victims have been just left where they fell as though the murderer was saying "these people have no worth") and as proof that nothing really changes. I knew a district nurse while living on Commercial Road in the 1960´s and as far as poverty, insect infestation and villainy in the East End was concerned, these were still alive and doing well. And nothing seems to have changed today, from what I hear about conditions among the less-privileged.

How about a plaque in the Ten Bells, if there isn´t one there already?

Begging forgiveness for getting on my hobbyhorse again,
C4

[Canopy]

I am not a fan of the "memorial land-mark" myself - seems too much, too late to me. These women have marked graves that are visited - HELL, if I get as many visitors after death will be one happy lady/ghost!!! I feel to give some memorial statue a tad "showcasing" their deaths and don't feel comfortable with that notion...just don't.

War memorials are remembering the masses that died on behalf of our country - not a handful slaughtered on the streets...to remember the Haulocaust is to, again, remember masses...

I think JTRs victims are best remembered in the mind - they are victims of a tale that haunts and do not require any statue to make us remember...they are not "the masses" either. They have not gone and died for a country, they have not gone and suffered BECAUSE war was on before they died horribly...They were just normal women that came to a nasty end...I'm of the opinion that the best they would want is for some clever person to name their killer rather than any statue!!!

My thinking any-ho!

All the best,

C.

[Madam Red]

Also, in retrospect, probably the most famous prostitutes in the history of Western Civilization, whose deaths are still being talked about. I mean, back then, they were just five women who were murdered. In the course of one hundred years, they've been accused of plotting to bring down the British empire, instigated modern criminal investigative techniques--especially autopsy photos and crime scene analysis, and turned the study of abnormal and deviant behavior on its head. They gone from being someone's wives and mothers, to "harlots," to drunkards, to "supposedly" Irish troublemakers, to the obession of artists and painters, and who knows how many words written about them...all in the quest to see that their killer is brought to justice. Like the Ripper, they have become the subject of myth and tall-tales, which, in my opinion, did nothing to help bring their killer to justice. These were the victims that instituted modern law enforcement...not to mention dispel such myths as photographing the eyes to see the last image in them. Since the turn of the 20th Century, these five women have done everything they can to ensure that--and this is where I get poetic--crime victims were real, living real people with real problems and not some casting call cut-out that we only see on CSI. I bet every person who wants to be a detective in the future wants to be the one to find out who the real JtR was, and he looks to these women and he sees those horrible pictures, and says, "I want to be the one to give you some rest." I mean, this is the reason why we are on this board, right? We want to be the ones who find the fiend so we can hold them responsible so we can finally rest. The mere fact that all of these debates are still on-going means that in one hundred years, people will still remember all of their names.

Beautifully said.

[Gman992]

Also, in retrospect, probably the most famous prostitutes in the history of Western Civilization, whose deaths are still being talked about. I mean, back then, they were just five women who were murdered. In the course of one hundred years, they've been accused of plotting to bring down the British empire, instigated modern criminal investigative techniques--especially autopsy photos and crime scene analysis, and turned the study of abnormal and deviant behavior on its head. They gone from being someone's wives and mothers, to "harlots," to drunkards, to "supposedly" Irish troublemakers, to the obession of artists and painters, and who knows how many words written about them...all in the quest to see that their killer is brought to justice. Like the Ripper, they have become the subject of myth and tall-tales, which, in my opinion, did nothing to help bring their killer to justice. These were the victims that instituted modern law enforcement...not to mention dispel such myths as photographing the eyes to see the last image in them. Since the turn of the 20th Century, these five women have done everything they can to ensure that--and this is where I get poetic--crime victims were real, living real people with real problems and not some casting call cut-out that we only see on CSI. I bet every person who wants to be a detective in the future wants to be the one to find out who the real JtR was, and he looks to these women and he sees those horrible pictures, and says, "I want to be the one to give you some rest." I mean, this is the reason why we are on this board, right? We want to be the ones who find the fiend so we can hold them responsible so we can finally rest. The mere fact that all of these debates are still on-going means that in one hundred years, people will still remember all of their names.

[smezenen]

The original question was, how should they be remembered not how should they be memorialized. These women already have memorials, they are called headstones.

If one of them happens to be your great great great great grand mother/aunt/cousin, then you can and should remember them for being that relitive, however the rest of us should only remember them for their historical roll, which is unwilling victim, murdered by some person or persons unknown.

[Phil Carter]

Hmmm.. difficult one.

Whilst we all feel loathing at what this series of murders presents within us, we use our combined knowledge and brains, to try and find answers.
Answers come in all ways. To find, basically, when all combined, the truth. Be it a smaller answer along the way, or the overall answer.

Our living memorial is indeed the amount of effort we all use, be it in discussion, argument, or deed. Whether we turn over a small stone, and fit another piece in this mammoth jigsaw together, or gradually see a greater picture emerge.

The Haulocaust has been mentioned. In my mind, and personally, I recall the end of the wonderful film, Schindlers List. There, the actors, who portrayed a part of a real person, walked arm in arm WITH that real person, to the grave of Oskar Schindler. There, together, they placed a normal, small stone each upon his tombstone. In memory of the good the man had done, for them, and for eternity. A simple but meaningful message to us all. And humbled we were by watching it.

IN my opinion.. erecting a statue, or suchlike, near the place of the murders, in Whitechapel or Spitalfields, will leave the thing open to yob culture, vandalism et al. One can only imagine some idiot spraying "whores" on it.

Should any memorial be placed anywhere, it should, in my opinion, be placed in a cemetery, a place of peace. I realise of course, that the victims were buried in different cemeteries, and also that vandalism occurs there as well. But better than out in the streets.

The only other place I can think of placing it, is right in front of New Scotland Yard. Like a stone placed in the ground, flat, to walk up to and look down upon, to stop, and make us use a few seconds, and remind us all of those below us on society's ladder, have the same right to live and breathe as we ourselves do. And who knows...perhaps a foundation set up, for donations to today's poor.

I don't know the answer... but should a stone memorial be done, I believe the stone itself should be simple. Reflecting the victim's circumstances, and their poverty.

Agreed, some may find it trite. Agreed, words and deeds are our legacy to the future, and our efforts to the victims reflect our determination.

Whatever happens or doesn't happen re a memorial ladies and gentlemen. This thread should remind us all of WHY we are doing this. The interest in these poor people's life and death. And the circumstances in which they lived, which caused, ultimately, their passing.

humbly

Phil

[Cap'n Jack]

Yes, I would find such a memorial trite I must say.
I would rather respect them with my words and deeds.

I was really surprised that there wasn't some sort of memorial plaque or something at each Ripper victim site. However, some might find such a gesture trite.

[Archaic]

Hi, everyone. This is a thought-provoking thread! It's true that one stone memorial in one city for 5 or so victims of murder from 120 years ago probably won't lead to a great deal of real change.

Therefore I believe that a simple, effective and MEANINGFUL way to remember both the Whitechapel victims & the plight of the very poor throughout our sad human history is to attack the problem at its root. There are many charities & social agencies working towards eradicating hunger, homelessness, addiction, lack of education, and the commercial sexual exploitation of women and children... Why not DONATE to one of them?

I don't wish to proselytize, but I sponsor a child in Africa through World Vision. $30 a month pays for school, books, meals, etc... I gave up my monthly manicures to cover it. (My nails look like hell, but I got a Christmas letter from an 8-yr old in scribbly colored crayon that made me cry & which I cherish!)

If you want to donate to a program specifically dedicated to getting young kids out of poverty-enduced Prostitution & back into school, W.V. & other local, national & international agencies have such programs & also have the infrastructure & knowledge to help make your donation effective. It doesn't have to be a lot of money- remember, 4 Pennies could have saved Catherine Eddowes life! Who knows what your 4 Pennies could do?

I think Mary Kelly and all the other victims of poverty & violence would entirely approve. A Memorial doesn't have to be carved block of stone!

[DVV]

Ripperology is already a memorial to the victims, don't you think ?

Amitiés all,
David

[Eastender]

Very well put Natalie I couldnt agree more. I like Jon Guys idea of the statues in Itchy Park, not just as a memorial to the victims, but to mark what was a defining moment in the history of the east end poor.

[Natalie Severn]

Victims of the holocaust may or may not have all been heroes , heroines,or even particularly good or bad people , but Hitler did not have the right to formulate such a plan of murder and execute that plan en masse.The memorials to his victims remind us of the monstrous depravity of this murderer with his grand design and the particular vulnerability of his chosen victims when he came to power and grossly abused that power.
But we dont honour Hitler , John, by remembering those who died in such ghastly circumstances -----just because they happened to be Jewish or of gypsy origin or whatever.Their memorials help remind us that such monstrous acts were perpetrated by an order from Hitler--- often simply because Hitler didnt like the race people belonged to so decided to get rid of that race .A memorial to the victims of the holocaust reminds us that we do have a sympathetic nature which recognises the wrongness of taking life , no matter what else may be going on around us in the world.
And so to me, personally ,by the very same token, a memorial for the victims of Jack the Ripper reminds us in a similar way ,of the monstrosity of this person"s behaviour,as well as the vulnerable circumstances of those women at that time who he selected for his crimes.

[Roy Corduroy]

What names would go on it, if any?

All ten names. And the inscription reads - "In memory of the vicitms of the Whitechapel murders"