The "Canonical Group" defines the Ripper...but accurately?

[Malcolm X]

Broadshoulders about 5ft 5'' to 5ft 7''...........respectable dress, average moustache............long coat

Blotchy face about 5ft 5''............scruffy dress and a large carotty moustache..........long coat

a moustache wont grow that quickly ( i think) it takes me 2 weeks to grow a small moustache ....and clothing tells us little, because a smart killer wont dress, or might not dress the same all the time.

50 to 60% out both sightings... so these 2 suspects could be the same! .... but these 2 dont match Eddowes, more importantly Broadshoulders doesn't match Eddowes...............BUT, did the Ripper quickly shoot home and change................oh God...what a mess; because he could quite easily couldn't he!

A small point, Michael, but this has caused problems in the past. Pipeman wasn't "across the street". He was standing outside the Nelson beer shop on the northwest corner of Berner and Fairclough, i.e., on the same side of the street as the IWEC. The only thing on the opposite (eastern) side of Berner St at that end of the block was a school.

Hi Maurice,

It was a point I was unsure if I recalled correctly but went with anyway. Thanks Maurice. The Star on Oct 1st says "A second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman".

I confess that Pipeman leaving the scene before the event has occurred made him far less interesting to me, than the man that remained at the yard entrance location when he left.

Cheers Mate.

[Malcolm X]

[QUOTE=The Grave Maurice;77557]A small point, Michael, but this has caused problems in the past. Pipeman wasn't "across the street". He was standing outside the Nelson beer shop on the northwest corner of Berner and Fairclough, i.e., on the same side of the street as the IWEC. The only thing on the opposite (eastern) side of Berner St at that end of the block was a school.[/QUOTE

yes ok, Shwartz hadn't crosed the street completely, not quite sure from both accounts where he was exactly standing, but Pipeman was on the same side of the street as BS....ok my mistake ...caught Perrymason out too...never mind!

still a mystery though, just like everything else

[Mr.Hyde]

This is an amazing site!
I believe I know who JTR was.
Bit like give enough monkees enough typewriters........OMG,I have a PC!
Anyone interested in disproving/proving my working hypothesis feel free to PM me.Riding and Whitechapel/London applicants only.
Like to thank several friends on this site.They know who they are.
Ciao,
Dave.

[The Grave Maurice]

...Pipeman was across the street in a pub or shop entranceway, lighting his pipe.

A small point, Michael, but this has caused problems in the past. Pipeman wasn't "across the street". He was standing outside the Nelson beer shop on the northwest corner of Berner and Fairclough, i.e., on the same side of the street as the IWEC. The only thing on the opposite (eastern) side of Berner St at that end of the block was a school.

[Malcolm X]

thanks Perrymason

[Mr.Hyde]

JTR was partially deaf.

Hi Malcolm,

I may be able to help with where people were located that night on Berner, based on the statements.

As Schwartz followed Broadshoukdered Man as he approached the gated entrance to Dutfields Yard and Liz standing near those gates, Pipeman was across the street in a pub or shop entranceway, lighting his pipe. When BSM tries to pull Liz out into and across the street, she demurs, resists moving, maybe even pulls back... and I believe BSM then just let go of her, causing her to fall. As he is assisting her to her feet, Schwartz passes the two of them, and as BSM sees him pass, he yells towards Israel "Lipski", the name of a Jewish man hung the previous year for a murder he committed just around the corner on Batty Street.

Schwartz scurries on faster now, and he notes that Pipeman leaves the scene just after him....but doesnt follow him home. Its assumed that Pipeman may have been like Schwartz, an innocent bystander, and he left for the same reason Schwartz does....a Broadshouldered drunk man just yelled a possible taunt or implied threat at him, or them.

From that point at 12:45-46 onward, the only other person seen near the place where Liz and BSM were after Schwartz and Pipeman leave, is Leon Goldstein, a club member, who walks by the gates with a gladstone bag at around 1:55....seen by Fanny Mortimer, as she was at her door off and on from around 12:45 onwards. She doesnt see Liz or BSM when she sees Goldstein....the odds are that they are already in the yard at that point.

So.....did Goldstein see something when he passes, or hurries by the open gates? Is that the reason he doesnt come into the yard and the club via the side door, since he is a member and 28 or so people are still singing upstairs? Were the empty cigarette cartons he had in his Gladstone destined for the Cigarette Makers that lived in cottages in Dutfields Yard...some who said they were awake the whole time? Did his seeing something inside that yard change his mind?

Speculation......but although Goldstein is seemingly unimportant to the equation....he passes directly past the gates at approx the latest time that Liz's throat was cut....by Blackwells estimate at 1:16am.

He estimated approx 20 minutes before his arrival, but not more than 1/2 hour earlier.

That means the probability is that Liz was already cut and lying there when Goldstein walks by.

Best regards

[Malcolm X]

Pipeman?.........now broadshoulders was shouting in his direction ``lipski``, and pipeman charged towards Schwartz, pipeman then followed schwartz but not very far, he supposedly had a knife in his hand.

but is this interpreted correctly by Schwartz? now Schwartz was standing roughly between Broadshoulders and pipeman ( he turned back to look at BS) ..........now was Pipeman actually charging at Broadshoulders, and in Schwart'z blind panic, he misinterepreted this as himself.

Pipeman followed Schwartz....yes but did Broadshoulders chase him off too! both suspects are described as ``respectable``....well what!

but both statements from Schwartz dont match, with regards to where Pipeman was actually standing..... he either came out of a pub or was already standing outside.....because if he was in the pub then these two arent accomplices... it's no good being a lookout if you're in the pub boozing, while the other is killing outside on his own is there
now who shouted ``lipski`` also varies in both statements too, what a total and utter mess!

but Pipeman was also standing in the right location to provide perfect cover for broadshoulders.....so it's very hard to tell what was going on that night.

this murder is the worst of all to suss out

[halomanuk]

Also unless of course Stride was intended to be found,ie in a public or busy place,which that area was because of the club etc,to cause distraction and focus on her murder,allowing the Ripper to catch and go to town on poor Eddowes.
No blood would be on him as he walked the streets after killing Stride and he would be in the city police district ready for the real victim of the night.
Just a thought..

[Malcolm X]

Mitch,

.

Subjectively, theres as many as 14 minutes available for Jack to come and go in. But that doesnt address the single cut, does it?

Best regards

yes this is true but, Jack could've come along at the tail end of this 15 minutes, and was thus disturbed, he would've had too anyway, because he would've been waiting for those other two or three men to clear off............but to also mutilate in that yard was out of character, but this depends what his motives were for killing there..

i say this:- maybe ( and a big maybe) that he wasn't intending to mutilate Stride.... he just needed a victim in this location; but this theory is weak and i admit this..

[halomanuk]

Hence why i think Tabram is more of a possible Ripper victim than Stride..

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I highly doubt Stride was a Ripper victim, going by the evidence and facts that we have surrounding her murder, but if she was, and it's a huge if, then Jack was allegedly 'interrupted' whilst cutting her throat. And if that's the case, it was likely because of the noise going on inside the club; which is exactly why Jack would not have risked doing his business in that venue in the first place. We know hardly anything about the man but what little we do know is that he wasn't totally reckless; he valued his life to some degree and didn't want to get caught; he was cautious. For him to have attempted a rip in that yard is quite out of character.

Hi. I don't agree with you about Stride but that's JMO. The absolute that puts her in Jack's list is that he killed again that night. But.

Nicholls and Chapman, killed outside, throat cut, against fence or wall. Same time of the week. Same type of victim.

Eddowes pretty well destroyed because of Jack's inability to get at Stride.

I don't have any difficulty with the concept of Jack lurking, watching Stride being beaten up whatever. Probably thought to himself, she won't be hard to take down. Because no-one saw Stride enter Dutfield's Yard we'll never know what happened or who she went in there with.

To me, it's logical. Serial killer on the prowl, in that area, same type of victim, same time of week, same initial method of killing, positions against fence or wall.

Hi NTS,

I wouldnt expect that everyone would agree with my suggestion, or even my justifications for the suggestion, but you do know that including Liz Stride means you have to add a subjective explanation for the lack of wounds... and either the Ripper hiding in a yard that was stated as empty, or suddenly appearing from the street through the gates... cutting, and leaving. Cause he probably wasnt Broadshouldered Man, based on his entrance.

Annie Chapman is by far the easiest victim to attribute to the killer known as Jack, she is the quintessential victim, and the signal she sends, based on the murder preceding hers, is that a new iteration of the Whitechapel Murderer thought to be active since the spring in stabbings/robberies, had been revealed. The fellow that killed her isnt one of a possible gang, hes a loner with some skill with a knife, and some knowledge of a womans internal organs. The uterus is extracted cleanly and efficiently.

The point of that is that Liz is killed very simply in between 2 kills that do have suggestions of a connection to Jack, and they are kills that are far from simple to understand.

There is no need to dumb him down by adding a victim that is purely and simply a murder victim...inferring he got caught with his pants down by a cart and horse which had been noisily approaching for minutes. There is not much escalation in terms of evident damage on Kate to that of Annie...he wasnt pissed off cause he got interrupted with Liz, he was just doing what he normally does and adding facial wounds.

Best regards NTS

[Nothing to see]

Mitch,

The simple truth is that whether or not people at the time thought she should be included as a Ripper, based on what we can see, that was not opinion based on physical or circumstantial evidence that would naturally lend itself to that conclusion. It was based on a belief a serial killer had started recently and had also killed later that same night. It was a belief that the reason we see the appearance of more severe collateral damage in his PM mutilations on Kate was due to a frustrated attempt earlier. She was included because people suspected the killer was halted.

Your response is why I created the thread....your knee jerk reaction was to support supposition that Liz Stride belongs in that group based on legitimate evidence. The truth is there is no such evidence that links her death to any person. There never was.

Contemporary Investigators grasping at straws is understandable,... modern day amateur sleuths have no need to. There is no urgency and looming threat to contend with here, no Public Relations nightmare,...no mounting death toll without answers, hes long dead and buried whoever he was.

Objectively, there is no evidence that suggests the person who killed Liz Stride killed any other people. We do not see other murderer trademarks here, nor do we see very similar murders to this one, with what may well be a slit across the throat while she fell.

Subjectively, theres as many as 14 minutes available for Jack to come and go in. But that doesnt address the single cut, does it?

Best regards

Hi. I don't agree with you about Stride but that's JMO. The absolute that puts her in Jack's list is that he killed again that night. But.

Nicholls and Chapman, killed outside, throat cut, against fence or wall. Same time of the week. Same type of victim.

Eddowes pretty well destroyed because of Jack's inability to get at Stride.

I don't have any difficulty with the concept of Jack lurking, watching Stride being beaten up whatever. Probably thought to himself, she won't be hard to take down. Because no-one saw Stride enter Dutfield's Yard we'll never know what happened or who she went in there with.

To me, it's logical. Serial killer on the prowl, in that area, same type of victim, same time of week, same initial method of killing, positions against fence or wall.