Did the Canonical 5 know each other

[etenguy]

Hello you all!

One modest view; even if Mary Kelly knew Annie Chapman, it doesn't mean any close relationship.

Since she - and the others of the canonical five - could have been her aunt, thinking about the age gap. So, probably they were in different circles in the East End.

All the best
Jukka

Absolutely, j.r-ahde. I was putting feelers out to see if someone had already done the research. If not, to get a sense of whether there was any mileage in conducting the research myself. There either will, or will not, be evidence that that the group knew each other or were friends. If it can be established one way or the other, the nature and closeness of any acquaintance can be explored. At this stage I was just hoping to get a sense of whether to pursue.

[DirectorDave]

I lived for two years in a crowded block of flats and at the end of that time I was still meeting people who had lived in the same block for as long as I had, but who I had never any memory of seeing, let alone meeting.

So for that reason - in the absence of any evidence at all that any of them knew any other of them even existed - which you acknowledge - I don't see how such a conclusion 'must be drawn'.

It's possible. I see it as being no more likely than it is unlikely.

We have telly and internet making closing the door an not engaging with neighbours slightly more attractive than what the Victorians had...a candle and a book...and these woman I suggest would have more in common with each other than we tend to do with our modern neighbours.

I've set the bar fairly low...in that alll that is required is that 2 of the C5 knew each other by sight...so if say oh I dunno Annie Chapman and Mary Jane Kelly knew each other as "the woman who drinks in the 10 Bells" and no more, not even friends then my theory holds.

I must draw that conclusion...for anyone else, other conclusions are available.

[Sam Flynn]

Since she - and the others of the canonical five - could have been her aunt, thinking about the age gap. So, probably they were in different circles in the East End.

Indeed, Jukka.

[Sam Flynn]

Echo London Middlesex November 9, 1888

This is a very early report, published on the day Kelly was found dead, when all kinds of stories were circulating about her. In the very next paragraph of that report in the Echo, we read that:

"The murdered woman had one child, a little boy of between six and seven. The little fellow lived with his mother. This poor child was sent out this morning, when the mother returned to the room with the assassin. The gossip of the neighbourhood, or rather of the very court in which the house is situated, is to the effect that the man who is suspected of having committed the murder sent the child out to buy sweets and playing he found the place in commotion, for his mother had been discovered lifeless and bleeding, and the murder had fled."

Reader beware!

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

One modest view; even if Mary Kelly knew Annie Chapman, it doesn't mean any close relationship.

Since she - and the others of the canonical five - could have been her aunt, thinking about the age gap. So, probably they were in different circles in the East End.

All the best
Jukka

[etenguy]

Echo London Middlesex November 9, 1888

Hi Jerry

Thank you. This is extremely interesting to me.

[etenguy]

I don't think its as easily dismissed Sam, she had children with Conway and even had his initials tattooed on her forearm. Within her last 2 aliases is almost the entire address of Mary Jane Kelly of 26 Dorset street, room 13 in the courtyard. The only thing missing is a single digit, the #2.

I'm not contending that its evidence Kate knew of Mary, but since we have Irish roots and connections here I could imagine that within Irish circles locally the 2 had been exposed to each other. I would also imagine Dorset Street and perhaps Crossinghams as a probable common spot. The catch is that Kate would have had to have known her most recent address, which would mean she was in touch with or had knowledge of Marys activities within a relatively short window of time before her death.

Ive had you admit that its a whopper of a coincidence if it is one before here, based on the context I suggest above.

Thanks Michael and Sam and DirectorDave, some interesting thoughts.

I guess the ticket could have said John Kelly, but in bad handwriting, and someone read it as Jane. But assuming it did say Jane Kelly, then while taking the point it might have been an alias, given Michael's post, it possibly bears closer scrutiny - particularly as she also appears to have known Annie Chapman (see posts above).

I don't have a theory which requires them to all know each other, but if it could be proved that they did, or that one of the five knew the other four, it might begin to suggest the victims were not random. Nowhere near proving that yet, but I think there is enough material to suggest it is worth researching and see where that leads.

[Henry Flower]

Echo London Middlesex November 9, 1888

Nice work Jerry!

[jerryd]

Echo London Middlesex November 9, 1888

[Henry Flower]

I think the conclusion must be drawn that at least some of the C5 knew each other.

I lived for two years in a crowded block of flats and at the end of that time I was still meeting people who had lived in the same block for as long as I had, but who I had never any memory of seeing, let alone meeting.

So for that reason - in the absence of any evidence at all that any of them knew any other of them even existed - which you acknowledge - I don't see how such a conclusion 'must be drawn'.

It's possible. I see it as being no more likely than it is unlikely.

[Michael W Richards]

I did? You must have caught me in a good mood

I cant believe that you are ever in a different state of mind Gareth.

[Sam Flynn]

Ive had you admit that its a whopper of a coincidence if it is one before here, based on the context I suggest above.

I did? You must have caught me in a good mood

[Sam Flynn]

There is some suggestion that MJK went by the name of Barnett on occasion, so longevity of relationships and parenthood may be less of a deciding factor. What would be more natural than for Eddowes to have borrowed John Kelly's surname?

[Michael W Richards]

Quite so. Kate's common-law husband was named Kelly, so it would be a natural name for her to have used on occasion. Indeed, she was known as "Kate Conway" when her partner was Thomas Conway.

I don't think its as easily dismissed Sam, she had children with Conway and even had his initials tattooed on her forearm. Within her last 2 aliases is almost the entire address of Mary Jane Kelly of 26 Dorset street, room 13 in the courtyard. The only thing missing is a single digit, the #2.

I'm not contending that its evidence Kate knew of Mary, but since we have Irish roots and connections here I could imagine that within Irish circles locally the 2 had been exposed to each other. I would also imagine Dorset Street and perhaps Crossinghams as a probable common spot. The catch is that Kate would have had to have known her most recent address, which would mean she was in touch with or had knowledge of Marys activities within a relatively short window of time before her death.

Ive had you admit that its a whopper of a coincidence if it is one before here, based on the context I suggest above.

[Sam Flynn]

I think Kate used Kelly as a pseudonym on various ocasions I do not think this is evidence she knew MJK.

Quite so. Kate's common-law husband was named Kelly, so it would be a natural name for her to have used on occasion. Indeed, she was known as "Kate Conway" when her partner was Thomas Conway.