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For what reason do we include Stride?

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  • #31
    'Two dreadful murders ... In one case, a woman was found in a yard in Berner Street, Commercial Road, with her head nearly severed from her body. In the other, a woman was found in Mitre Square ... with her throat cut from ear to ear, and the body mutilated in a way that reproduced the worst features of the murder of Annie Chapman .... It may be well to state that the police have no evidence of any kind actually establishing it as a fact that the two murders were committed by the same hand .... But the presumption is almost overwhelming in favour of the supposition that the two are connected.' (Daily News, October 1st). - The popular Press therefore jumped immediately to the assumption that they were both victims of the 'Ripper' (the Police may have been more circumspect, but they were not talking to the Press).
    'The Central News says: A post-card bearing the stamp "London, E, October 1" was received this morning ...' (Evening News, 1 October); it goes on to quote the 'Saucy Jacky' message. While the paper admits it could be a practical joke, it leaves no doubt that it accepts it:- and so the imagination-grabbing 'double event' took wings.
    The police very soon followed suit, but given the level of popular uproar and panic over the killings ('Every circumstance of these crimes tends to leave them without a parallel in the experience of this generation', Daily News, 3 October, eg) they could hardly have done otherwise.
    So, right or wrong, the Stride killing was placed in the Nichols-Chapman-Stride-Eddowes sequence right from day one.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by John G View Post
      Clumsy BS man, in my opinion, is very unlikely to have been Stride's killer, assuming he existed at all. As Keppel (2005) points out, the evidence suggests that JtR's murders were planned and organized, which is not suggestive of a drunken fool, who randomly attacks someone in the street in front of two witnesses. In fact, if BS man was Stride's killer I think it highly unlikely she was a Ripper victim.
      Hi John

      I`m not sure who Keppel is but which JTR murders is he basing his opinion on ?

      As far as the two witnesses go, Schwartz was behind BS Man when he started throwing the woman around, and BS Man stops when he eventually sees Schwartz.
      We don`t know what Pipeman saw. All we know is that he is first noticed by Schwartz when he crossed the road.
      So, it wasn`t "in front of two witnesses".

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Mirandola View Post
        So, right or wrong, the Stride killing was placed in the Nichols-Chapman-Stride-Eddowes sequence right from day one.
        Yes, it was another murder by throat cut by persons unknown and was placed in the appropriate file.

        Comment


        • #34
          Quite so, Jon; the point I was making was that once the Press had seized on that seductive 'double event' soundbite, the case seems to have been simply taken for granted. The Daily News of 1 Oct. does give a certain space to Phillips' contention that he didn't consider the murders to be by the same hand, but once the bandwagon got going very little of that possibility is aired.
          Keppel:-
          The Jack the Ripper Murders: A Modus Operandi
          and Signature Analysis of the 1888Ė1891
          Whitechapel Murders
          ROBERT D. KEPPEL1*, JOSEPH G. WEIS2, KATHERINE M. BROWN1 and
          KRISTEN WELCH1
          Abstract
          A number of females, commonly recognized as 11 victims, were murdered in separate
          events in Whitechapel, London between 1888 and 1891. An evaluation of the murders
          revealed that six of those murders were linked by a number of distinct, personal signature
          characteristics, including picquerism, overkill, incapacitation, domination and control,
          open and displayed, unusual body position, sexual degradation, mutilation, organ harvesting,
          specific areas of attack, preplanning and organization, and a combination of signature
          features. The signature characteristics observed in these infamous Jack the Ripper
          murders were compared to a 1981Ė1995 cohort of 3359 homicide cases from Washington
          Stateís HITS database. The analysis revealed that the signature displayed in six of the
          Whitechapel murders was extremely rare.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Mirandola View Post
            Quite so, Jon; the point I was making was that once the Press had seized on that seductive 'double event' soundbite, the case seems to have been simply taken for granted. The Daily News of 1 Oct. does give a certain space to Phillips' contention that he didn't consider the murders to be by the same hand, but once the bandwagon got going very little of that possibility is aired.
            Keppel:-
            The Jack the Ripper Murders: A Modus Operandi
            and Signature Analysis of the 1888–1891
            Whitechapel Murders
            ROBERT D. KEPPEL1*, JOSEPH G. WEIS2, KATHERINE M. BROWN1 and
            KRISTEN WELCH1
            Abstract
            A number of females, commonly recognized as 11 victims, were murdered in separate
            events in Whitechapel, London between 1888 and 1891. An evaluation of the murders
            revealed that six of those murders were linked by a number of distinct, personal signature
            characteristics, including picquerism, overkill, incapacitation, domination and control,
            open and displayed, unusual body position, sexual degradation, mutilation, organ harvesting,
            specific areas of attack, preplanning and organization, and a combination of signature
            features. The signature characteristics observed in these infamous Jack the Ripper
            murders were compared to a 1981–1995 cohort of 3359 homicide cases from Washington
            State’s HITS database. The analysis revealed that the signature displayed in six of the
            Whitechapel murders was extremely rare.
            Not forgetting victimology , Mirandola

            Murdered on 30th Sept:

            45yrs old.
            5`5
            black jacket and black bonnet
            address: 32 Flower and Dean Street
            murdered at 1am approx. 15 min walk from home address

            46yrs old
            5`
            black jacket and black bonnet
            address: 55 Flower and Dean Street
            murdered at 1.45am approx. 10 min walk from home address

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
              Hi John

              I`m not sure who Keppel is but which JTR murders is he basing his opinion on ?

              As far as the two witnesses go, Schwartz was behind BS Man when he started throwing the woman around, and BS Man stops when he eventually sees Schwartz.
              We don`t know what Pipeman saw. All we know is that he is first noticed by Schwartz when he crossed the road.
              So, it wasn`t "in front of two witnesses".
              Hi Jon,

              Keppel is an American criminologist and criminal profiler; he undertook a signature and MO analysis of the Whitechapel murders:http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...ip.22/abstract.

              I agree with some of his analysis, however, certain of his conclusions are a bit dubious, i.e. that JtR was a picquerist, whatever that means.

              I would, however, argue that there is good evidence that JtR managed to inveigle his victims into accompanying him to prior selected murder locations. And, unlike BS man, he certainly didn't seem to launch a blitz attack against random victims, whilst being completely oblivious, or unconcerned, to the presence of possible witnesses. A good example is Eddowes where, if Lawende, Levy and Harris are to be accepted, he spent some time speaking to the victim before luring her into Mitre Square after the witnesses were out of sight.

              In fact, it seems to me that was exactly what PC Smith's suspect was attempting to do, and that he probably inveigled Stride into Dutfield's Yard as soon as the officer had departed.

              Comment


              • #37
                Hi, Jon,
                Yes, I was just quoting the abstract for the Keppel et al analysis; they settle on six of the eleven as having sufficiently similar signatures to be considered as being victims of the same killer (Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly). Their analysis demonstrates with a lot of detail how rare this specific set of behaviours is when compared to a random run of 3359 murders from the Washington State HITS database.

                SUMMARY
                Typically, in sexually-oriented murders the killerís approach to the victims is predatory.
                The selection of prostitutes and the location of the murders ensured that Jack the Ripper
                would succeed in carrying out his fantasies. His MO contained the actions necessary to
                commit the murders. Jack the Ripper killed within a one-mile square in the Whitechapel
                area between midnight and 6:00 a.m. His victims were all white, female prostitutes
                between the ages of 24 and 45 years old. He used a knife to stab and cut his victims. His
                initial murders were committed outdoors, but he moved indoors with his last known victim.
                The MO of Jack the Ripper changed from one murder to the next as the killer learned
                more effective techniques.
                The activities above and beyond what were necessary to murder the victims, were the
                killerís unique signature. Jack the Ripperís signature was clear in six of the Whitechapel
                murder cases and exhibited the following characteristics: 1) the injuries sustained by the
                victims displayed the signature characteristic of picquerism; 2) the killer displayed a levelof overkill in each case that escalated over the series; 3) the victims were incapacitated
                immediately and killed quickly to enable the killer to live out his fantasies; 4) the killer
                exhibited complete domination over each victim; 5) the victimsí bodies were left open and
                on display; 6) the victims in this series were displayed in unusual body positions, revealing
                signs of posing; 7) the victims were left in sexually degrading positions with their legs
                spread and genitalia exposed to illustrate their vulnerability after death and the killerís
                dominance; 8) the killer mutilated his victims and showed increased postmortem mutilation
                from one victim to the next; 9) the killer evolved to the removal of their organs and
                body parts, and removed some of them from the crime scenes; 10) the killer targeted specific
                areas of attack, stabbing and slashing the breasts, genitalia, abdomen, and sexual
                organs of the victims; 11) the murders were planned and organized; and 12) the combination
                of these actions created a unique signature with which we can link the six victims
                of one killer, Jack the Ripper.

                (This is the conclusion of the article.)

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by John G View Post
                  Keppel is an American criminologist and criminal profiler; he undertook a signature and MO analysis of the Whitechapel murders:http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...ip.22/abstract.
                  Doesn`t Keppel include Stride in his tally, John ?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
                    Doesn`t Keppel include Stride in his tally, John ?
                    Hi Jon,

                    Yes, he does. But, fortunately, he makes no reference to BS man! In fact, his conclusion was that the murders indicate "careful planning", which doesn't sound like BS man at all. PC Smith's suspect, on the other hand...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by John G View Post
                      Yes, he does. But, fortunately, he makes no reference to BS man! In fact, his conclusion was that the murders indicate "careful planning", which doesn't sound like BS man at all. PC Smith's suspect, on the other hand...
                      Ah, John, so you`re going with Keppel`s findings but rejecting his conclusions ?!

                      I don`t think Keppel will know the details surrounding the murders as well as we do. He probably studied the p.m. reports, police files and witness statements, and Schwartz was only a witness, who never said he saw the woman been murdered.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by John G View Post
                        And, unlike BS man, he certainly didn't seem to launch a blitz attack against random victims, whilst being completely oblivious, or unconcerned, to the presence of possible witnesses. A good example is Eddowes where, if Lawende, Levy and Harris are to be accepted, he spent some time speaking to the victim before luring her into Mitre Square after the witnesses were out of sight.
                        I don`t, John, I would have said Eddowes et al were all victims of a blitz attack.

                        Why random victims ?
                        The descriptions of some of the men who were with Stride leading up to her death are very similar. It seems to me that BS Man did spend a great deal of time with Stride.

                        Well, the difference between Lawende, Levy and Harris and Schwartz and BS Man is that Church Passage Man was probably watching the three men exit the club and walk past them.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
                          I don`t, John, I would have said Eddowes et al were all victims of a blitz attack.

                          Why random victims ?
                          The descriptions of some of the men who were with Stride leading up to her death are very similar. It seems to me that BS Man did spend a great deal of time with Stride.

                          Well, the difference between Lawende, Levy and Harris and Schwartz and BS Man is that Church Passage Man was probably watching the three men exit the club and walk past them.
                          Hi Jon,

                          Yes, perhaps I didn't explain myself very well! Firstly, I think he probably spent a significant amount of time with the victims before launching his assault-you appear to agree with this assessment, at least as regards Stride. During this phase I believe he was probably quite charming- or at least non-threatening-giving the victims no reason to be on their guard.

                          However, once he was ready to strike, I consider it likely that he acted quickly and decisively, probably grabbing the victim's throat from behind and, in some cases, strangling them prior to cutting the throat. In any event, they were quickly immobilized, and given no opportunity to resist.

                          In sharp contrast, BS man seems to launch a full-frontal assault against Stride, engaging in a kind of tug of war match as he tries to pull her into the street, and immediately alerting her to the dangers. In fact, even after this episode he fails to effectively immobilize Stride; instead he simply throws her to the ground-in front of two witnesses that he's either unaware of, or simply doesn't care about-giving her the opportunity to cry out for help.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
                            Ah, John, so you`re going with Keppel`s findings but rejecting his conclusions ?!

                            I don`t think Keppel will know the details surrounding the murders as well as we do. He probably studied the p.m. reports, police files and witness statements, and Schwartz was only a witness, who never said he saw the woman been murdered.
                            Hi Jon,

                            Yes, you might be right there. In fact, Keppel wasn't quite as thorough as you suggest: he seemed to rely mainly on textbooks-Evans and Gainey, Sugden, Evans and Skinner etc- to inform him of the details of the various murders, although he does mention the coroner's reports when considering MO characteristics (no coroner's reports are referred to in the references, however.)

                            Nonetheless, most of his findings, regarding the basic facts, appear to me to be non controversial. However, as regards his conclusions, some I would agree with-such as the victims being incapacitated quickly and killed immediately-whilst others are more questionable, i.e. the picquerism signature and the deliberate posing of the bodies.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by John G View Post
                              Hi Damaso,

                              I think this is a very good post, which I absolutely agree with. In respect of Dutfield's Yard, most of the club members had left by the time Stride was murdered. Moreover, the yard was cloaked in almost pitch black darkness-Lave couldn't even see the door to get back into the club-giving the assailant a level of protection: personally I would consider Bucks Row, Mitre Square and Hanbury Street to have been riskier venues.

                              Clumsy BS man, in my opinion, is very unlikely to have been Stride's killer, assuming he existed at all. As Keppel (2005) points out, the evidence suggests that JtR's murders were planned and organized, which is not suggestive of a drunken fool, who randomly attacks someone in the street in front of two witnesses. In fact, if BS man was Stride's killer I think it highly unlikely she was a Ripper victim.
                              In past forum debates about Jack the Ripper's mental state, I have pointed out that the lack of evidence at virtually all of the crime scenes and the silence that accompanied every single murder suggests a killer who was consciously covering his tracks - and by implication knew that what he was doing was wrong (or at least would be considered wrong by society).

                              Thus I argue for a sane Ripper - or at least not a raving lunatic who thought he was slaughtering horses.

                              To me, this suggests a killer who was sane enough and in control of himself enough to also have been able to plan and organize.

                              I assume, as many others do, that the Ripper picked up his victims on the street as if he wanted to use their services, allowed his victims to take him to a safe area (as knowing which areas were relatively safe and private was part of their job), and then subdued, killed, and mutilated them. Unfortunately, I do not have the evidence to truly prove this: we cannot rule out that the Ripper was not a "blitz" killer who lay in waiting for a passing victim, grabbed them, and killed them right there. The only evidence against a blitz killer is Lawende's testimony, but that won't do much to convince somebody who believes that Eddowes is not a ripper victim, or that Lawende didn't actually see Eddowes, or somebody who believes that Eddowes and whoever Lawende saw parted ways and Eddowes walked into Mitre Square alone.

                              (to me, Occam's razor rules out the second two scenarios, but stranger things have happened)

                              But even a blitz killer can be organized. You can envision a blitz killer who carefully picks out the locations at which he will lay in ambush, perhaps knowing the best spots because he uses prostitutes for sex on days he's not ripping. Even if we adopt a less organized model of the ripper, where he impulsively grabs women on the street to murder and mutilate then, to do that with the level of success the Whitechapel killer did requires at least some forethought about how you are going to subdue your victim when the impulse to kill comes.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
                                Ah, John, so you`re going with Keppel`s findings but rejecting his conclusions ?!

                                I don`t think Keppel will know the details surrounding the murders as well as we do. He probably studied the p.m. reports, police files and witness statements, and Schwartz was only a witness, who never said he saw the woman been murdered.
                                This is going to be a problem anytime Ripper scholarship is done by somebody for whom the Whitechapel murders are simply a case study, rather than a life-long passion.

                                Comment

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