The Scotsman Account of the Stride murder

[Wickerman]

People rarely carry around two handkerchiefs, and it would be even rarer for a woman, especially a very poor one, to have two - one a woman's, and one a man's.

These are women who often had no choice but to wear men's boots & coats, and you think having a man's handkerchief in her pocket is suspicious?
Have you ever read anything about how the destitute survived in the East of the 19th century?

It is also unlikely that there was an illusion of grapes in Stride's hand, and there was no physical evidence for grapes on or in her body, except for the stains on the man's handkerchief.

What evidence should there be?

Then we have three witnesses claiming to have seen grapes in Stride's hand, and one of those takes it back, when under oath.

What possible conspiracy could involve something so innocuous as grapes?

As for the grape stalk, as far as I know this was discovered (supposedly), in daylight - well after the cleanup.
So it may well have been planted, or perhaps the discovery itself, was fabricated?

The stalk was said to have been found in the drain. Where-else should we expect yard rubbish to end up after the yard was swilled?

[Wickerman]

I think there was someone with the surname of Issacs with Louis, and there was someone named Issac Kozebrodski that was sent out alone near 12:45...just as he stated. Youll note that Issac[s] is recorded in that fashion...with an assumed erroneous [s]. As if Louis had mistaken his reference to Issac. I don't believe he did myself, because Issac Kozebrodksi clearly says he was by the body with Louis and others at 12:40. Then he was sent out alone.

As for men with a surname of Issacs, interesting that we have another one appear during the Kelly investigation. Would also be interesting to find 1 man at more than 1 Ripper crime scene, other than police. Just a what if. But if you choose to disbelieve Issac K's own words, even though his account has 3rd party verification from multiple sources, then you stil have the issue of whether he actually meant someone with the surname of Issacs. If you believe Issac K's own account, then at the very least Louis lied about his arrival time. Simple.

The London Evening News makes no mention of 12:40, and we have Kozebrodski in quotes:

"I came into the club about which you are asking me at half-past twelve o'clock. Shortly after I came in Diemschitz asked me to come out into the yard, as he saw there was something unusual had taken place there. So I came out with him, and he then pointed out to me a stream of blood, which was running down the gutter in the direction of the gate, and flowed from the gate to the back-door.........."
London Evening News, 1 Oct. 1888.

I guess this is done, Michael?

[Michael W Richards]

But Michael, the press accounts by Diemshutz & the reporter both say that Isaacs & Isaac K. were in the club at the same time, both were alerted by Diemschutz, at the same time, both went out in the yard with Diemschutz, at the same time, both lit a candle, etc. etc.

How many Isaac's/Isaac K's do you think did the same thing, at the same time, at the same place?
Monty Python seems to have influenced someone here.....

I think there was someone with the surname of Issacs with Louis, and there was someone named Issac Kozebrodski that was sent out alone near 12:45...just as he stated. Youll note that Issac[s] is recorded in that fashion...with an assumed erroneous [s]. As if Louis had mistaken his reference to Issac. I don't believe he did myself, because Issac Kozebrodksi clearly says he was by the body with Louis and others at 12:40. Then he was sent out alone.

As for men with a surname of Issacs, interesting that we have another one appear during the Kelly investigation. Would also be interesting to find 1 man at more than 1 Ripper crime scene, other than police. Just a what if. But if you choose to disbelieve Issac K's own words, even though his account has 3rd party verification from multiple sources, then you stil have the issue of whether he actually meant someone with the surname of Issacs. If you believe Issac K's own account, then at the very least Louis lied about his arrival time. Simple.

[Wickerman]

Issac[s]. Like they knew he actually meant Issac K. That's disputed directly by Issac K in his own words by the way Jon, as you well know.

Reminds me of Monty Pythons What I merely Meant sketch.

But Michael, the press accounts by Diemshutz & the reporter both say that Isaacs & Isaac K. were in the club at the same time, both were alerted by Diemschutz, at the same time, both went out in the yard with Diemschutz, at the same time, both lit a candle, etc. etc.

How many Isaac's/Isaac K's do you think did the same thing, at the same time, at the same place?
Monty Python seems to have influenced someone here.....

[Wickerman]

Regardless of what is stated about him in the papers, the direct quote indicates Kozebrodsky can speak English just fine.

Sadly not, all we can say with any certainty is the reporter's English is perfectly fine.

Let me just ask, were you aware that at least three newspapers (here on Casebook) provide that same paragraph? There may be many more on the BNA, but just taking these three as an example. Check out the London Evening News, the Daily News and the Irish Times.

You talk about Kozebrodski's words being quoted, well only the London Evening News uses quotes (they also use a 'y' - Kozebrodsky), both the Daily News and the Irish Times dropped the quotes. Did you notice?, I suspect not.
When a paper drops the quotes it's because the article will contain assumption, or paraphrase, in whole or in part does not matter.
Here is the London Evening News, with quotes....

"I came into the club about which you are asking me at half-past twelve o'clock. Shortly after I came in Diemschitz asked me to come out into the yard, as he saw there was something unusual had taken place there. So I came out with him, and he then pointed out to me a stream of blood, which was running down the gutter in the direction of the gate, and flowed from the gate to the back-door.........."
London Evening News, 1 Oct. 1888.

There is no mention of "twenty minutes to one".
Isn't that a shocker!

[Michael W Richards]

What happened next?


Western Daily Press, 1 Oct. 1888, pg 8.

Diemschutz, with Isaacs together, went for police....

Issac[s]. Like they knew he actually meant Issac K. That's disputed directly by Issac K in his own words by the way Jon, as you well know.

Reminds me of Monty Pythons What I merely Meant sketch.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't see that. The clipping by Debs merely says Packer was knocked down by two men who scoffed at him (Packer), claiming to know where JtR lived.
Thats all.

This post by Debra A, and follow-up

Isn't claiming the handkerchief was planted, without any evidence, just as bad as claiming the grape stalk was planted?
I'd like to know when any serious member is going to address ALL the evidence in the case, instead of cherry-picking what they like and dismissing what they don't.

There is evidence...

People rarely carry around two handkerchiefs, and it would be even rarer for a woman, especially a very poor one, to have two - one a woman's, and one a man's.
It is also unlikely that there was an illusion of grapes in Stride's hand, and there was no physical evidence for grapes on or in her body, except for the stains on the man's handkerchief.
Then we have three witnesses claiming to have seen grapes in Stride's hand, and one of those takes it back, when under oath.
This very strange set of circumstances, leads me to believe that the grapes in hand story was fabricated, and that the stained hanky was planted, as was the cachous - these all take Stride off the property, and hint that she was with a non-club person, at Packer's window (and I believe Packer also sold sweets).

Another interesting point about the grapes and cachous issue is; the three people who 'see' grapes all refer to the cachous as 'sweets' or 'sweetmeats', and everyone else who sees the cachous, refers to them as 'cachous'.
I find that to be an interesting coincidence.

As for the grape stalk, as far as I know this was discovered (supposedly), in daylight - well after the cleanup.
So it may well have been planted, or perhaps the discovery itself, was fabricated?
As I said, I'm not 100% clear in my own mind on the whole Packer/grapes thing, however, it does all seem highly suspicious.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Who changed "imperfectly" to "perfectly"?

Regardless of what is stated about him in the papers, the direct quote indicates Kozebrodsky can speak English just fine.
The issue of course, being this:

I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard.

This can't be dismissed as misspeak due to poor English, if that appears not to be the case.
On the other hand, why do some of the papers suggest that Isaacs English is poor?
Have they been been fed that lie, in an effort to keep him away from the inquest, at which he might say the 'wrong' thing?

[DJA]

That would be absolutely fantastic.

[Wickerman]

Like post #11,where Diemschutz is "quoted" as being steward and resident at the club for 6 or 7 years when it had only been established in 1885.

This is why we should compare all the press reports.
The Daily Telegraph, 1st Oct. reports:
"I have been steward of the club six or seven months."

Its about time the moderators on Casebook provided the complete Daily Telegraph coverage instead of the edited down version because of the book, News From Whitechapel.
If they want volunteers to type out the complete version from the BNA archive, I'll join up again.
I've got bugger all else to do these days

[DJA]

I'd like to know when any serious member is going to address ALL the evidence in the case, instead of cherry-picking what they like and dismissing what they don't.

Like post #11,where Diemschutz is "quoted" as being steward and resident at the club for 6 or 7 years when it had only been established in 1885.

[Wickerman]

Yes that's possible, although I would have presumed they had a few lanterns to guide them.
Otherwise, why not wait until sunrise? What's the rush?

I must admit, I don't really understand the whole Packer/grapes thing.
Yes, Le Grand was a crook, but does Packer change his story, due to Le Grand's influence?
This post by Debra A, and follow-up, seems to indicate that Packer is something of a chronic liar.

I don't see that. The clipping by Debs merely says Packer was knocked down by two men who scoffed at him (Packer), claiming to know where JtR lived.
Thats all.

As for grapes actually being in the hand or yard, at any point, I'm inclined to doubt it.
I think the illusion explanations for Diemschitz/Kozebrodsky & possibly Mortimer's sighting of grapes are quite farfetched, including my own.
The claims to having seen grapes are designed to take Stride off the property, leading up to her death.
So was the fruit stained man's handkerchief - it was planted.
As was the cachous packet - in her right hand.

Isn't claiming the handkerchief was planted, without any evidence, just as bad as claiming the grape stalk was planted?
I'd like to know when any serious member is going to address ALL the evidence in the case, instead of cherry-picking what they like and dismissing what they don't.

[Wickerman]

Isaac M. Kozebrodski, a young Russian Pole, who spoke the English language perfectly, gave the following information:-

The Daily News reporter took a different view:
"A young Russian Pole named Isaac M. Kozebrodski, born in Warsaw, who speaks the English language imperfectly,".....

Is that an editorial mistake by the Scotsman?
The London Evening News appears to have copied the Daily News version, just reworded it. The account covers all the same points, but provides nothing more.
However, the Morning Advertiser, The Times, The Irish Times, The Woodford Times, all use an agency version, all the accounts being very similar.

The quote you take from The Scotsman was the same used by The Daily News, except here we read "imperfectly".:

"A young Russian Pole named Isaac M. Kozebrodski, born in Warsaw, who speaks the English language imperfectly, gave the following information:-I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom".

He certainly sounds like he has perfect command of the English language.
Why have we been led to believe that that was not the case?

Who changed "imperfectly" to "perfectly"?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If I recall correctly, the yard was swilled and brushed before 5 o'clock, when it was opened again.
If this is correct, it is not even daylight a 5:00 am, so a grape stalk might be missed, and (we read) white petals were scattered in the yard.

Yes that's possible, although I would have presumed they had a few lanterns to guide them.
Otherwise, why not wait until sunrise? What's the rush?

I must admit, I don't really understand the whole Packer/grapes thing.
Yes, Le Grand was a crook, but does Packer change his story, due to Le Grand's influence?
This post by Debra A, and follow-up, seems to indicate that Packer is something of a chronic liar.

Did Packer really go to the mortuary, and correctly not identify Eddowes as Stride, but did identify Stride as Stride?
What does Le Grande gain from this (assuming it occurred), as a crook?
If it's all done legit, why are the WVC employing this man, or did they not do a proper background check?

Why does Packer have the opinion that JtR does not live "very far from Batty street"?
Is this just attention seeking, or does he really know - or at least sense - something?

As for grapes actually being in the hand or yard, at any point, I'm inclined to doubt it.
I think the illusion explanations for Diemschitz/Kozebrodsky & possibly Mortimer's sighting of grapes are quite farfetched, including my own.
The claims to having seen grapes are designed to take Stride off the property, leading up to her death.
So was the fruit stained man's handkerchief - it was planted.
As was the cachous packet - in her right hand.

[Wickerman]

I think a key to discovering what actually happened is by using times within these statements...

Heschberg-"I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected"

Issac K-"About twenty minutes to one this (Sunday) morning Mr. Diemshitz called me out into the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was"

What happened next?


Western Daily Press, 1 Oct. 1888, pg 8.

Diemschutz, with Isaacs together, went for police....