Berner St. 1909 Sun/Shadow Study

[Dr. John Watson]

Richard, you've probably already reviewed prior threads concerning Dutfield's Yard drawings, but in case you missed it, here's a link to Jane Coram's posting relating to her painting:

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/14948.html


Dr. John

[Dr. John Watson]

Well, the Dutfield's Yard (Phillip Hutchinson) photo and analysis in his book 'Location Photos' showed me where I was going wrong. I've had that book for ages but foolishly forgot about it. Then someone mentioned it and jogged my memory. Hutchinson demonstrates that most of the contemporary drawings are inaccurate and shows by way of the photograph where things were such as the wooden steps and the cottage door/window configuration.

The Goad fire map shows the steps on the left hand side whereas the drawings (and Jane's paintings) show them on the right.

So by using the Hutchinson photo along with Goad etc. I can start again and maybe this time get it right!

I remember asking about this book, which I don't have either, but from what I recall, the photo (assuming it really is Dutfield's Yard) was taken sometime after 1900 - am I correct? If this is the case, isn't it possible some structural changes could have been made during the intervening years, not necessarily to the club building itself, but to the background buildings, such as roof lines, stairways, etc? Wouldn't contemporary drawings sketched at the time be more accurate than a photo taken many years later? Why would an artist deliberately misplace or change something? I don't know how Mr. Hutchinson can prove that contemporary drawings are inaccurate, but personally I'd trust the guy who actually stood there in 1888 and made the sketch over any modern-day conclusions based on interpretation and conjecture. It also seems to me that several contemporary sketches were made by different artists, so I guess they'd all have to have gotten it wrong. As I say, I haven't seen the photo or read Mr. Hutchinson's explanation as to why the photo is different from the contemporary sketches, but I wouldn't base your reconstruction on it, any more than on the Goad map which may be include structures, stairways, etc. that existed either before or after the date of the map. That's just my opinion.

John

[GUT]

Well, the Dutfield's Yard (Phillip Hutchinson) photo and analysis in his book 'Location Photos' showed me where I was going wrong. I've had that book for ages but foolishly forgot about it. Then someone mentioned it and jogged my memory. Hutchinson demonstrates that most of the contemporary drawings are inaccurate and shows by way of the photograph where things were such as the wooden steps and the cottage door/window configuration.

The Goad fire map shows the steps on the left hand side whereas the drawings (and Jane's paintings) show them on the right.

So by using the Hutchinson photo along with Goad etc. I can start again and maybe this time get it right!

OK. I don't have the book but it sounds like the best bet by far. Good luck and again thanks for the hard work.

[richardh]

Well, the Dutfield's Yard (Phillip Hutchinson) photo and analysis in his book 'Location Photos' showed me where I was going wrong. I've had that book for ages but foolishly forgot about it. Then someone mentioned it and jogged my memory. Hutchinson demonstrates that most of the contemporary drawings are inaccurate and shows by way of the photograph where things were such as the wooden steps and the cottage door/window configuration.

The Goad fire map shows the steps on the left hand side whereas the drawings (and Jane's paintings) show them on the right.

So by using the Hutchinson photo along with Goad etc. I can start again and maybe this time get it right!

What has persuaded you re the stairs and I thought the club was reported as having two doors, [but will need to try and find that reference].

[GUT]

GUT
That 'photo' snap at the start of this thread doesn't really show all the glaring errors I've made.
e.g
The wooden stairs are on the wrong side (should be to the left rather than the right), The building next to the stairs is totally wrong. Should be single story with a different roof shape. The cottages you mentioned and which I updated are wrong again. Should be only one doorway with four windows which make up the right side of the ally (which is the workingman's club). And oh so many more errors...

I'll get it right eventually.

What has persuaded you re the stairs and I thought the club was reported as having two doors, [but will need to try and find that reference].

[richardh]

Thanks Hatchett but that 'photo snap' is full of mistakes. It looks good but it's totally inaccurate.

Hi Richard,

That is excellent.

Thank you.

[richardh]

GUT
That 'photo' snap at the start of this thread doesn't really show all the glaring errors I've made.
e.g
The wooden stairs are on the wrong side (should be to the left rather than the right), The building next to the stairs is totally wrong. Should be single story with a different roof shape. The cottages you mentioned and which I updated are wrong again. Should be only one doorway with four windows which make up the right side of the ally (which is the workingman's club). And oh so many more errors...

I'll get it right eventually.

G'day Richard

I don't think it's that wrong. And really appreciate the work you put in.

[GUT]

Okay, Gotta start over. Everything's wrong. That image at the start of this thread will be updated when I have something to replace it with as it's clearly an inaccurate depiction of Dutfield's Yard.

Sorry
Update soon (ish)!

G'day Richard

I don't think it's that wrong. And really appreciate the work you put in.

[Hatchett]

Hi Richard,

That is excellent.

Thank you.

[richardh]

Okay, Gotta start over. Everything's wrong. That image at the start of this thread will be updated when I have something to replace it with as it's clearly an inaccurate depiction of Dutfield's Yard.

Sorry
Update soon (ish)!

[GUT]

G'day Richard

Personally I'd go with this one:

http://wiki.casebook.org/images/thum...fieldsYard.jpg

[richardh]

Thanks,
So do you think that Jane's painting is the correct configuration for the cottages on both sides?

[GUT]

Right, I've been working on Dutfield's Yard. I'm about 50% complete so I thought I'd share an aged snap of what I've got so far.

Still very basic but I'm pleased with things so far.

Here is a snap:


Need advice on the cottages and the side of the workingman's club (windows, doors etc.)

G'day Richard

Looking good.

I do think that you may have added one bay too many to the building on the right. That's when I compare it to the sketches. It seems you have three "bays" the sketches both have two.

[richardh]

Right, I've been working on Dutfield's Yard. I'm about 50% complete so I thought I'd share an aged snap of what I've got so far.

Still very basic but I'm pleased with things so far.

Here is a snap:


Need advice on the cottages and the side of the workingman's club (windows, doors etc.)

[Dr. John Watson]

I know what you mean.
Accepting that everyone's screen is a different size, I think there are clues that confirm the accepted measurement.



If you measure the width on your screen of that house door to the left of the passage, then compare that with the width from corner to corner between the buildings, across the passage, you will see that the passage width is roughly three times the width of the door.
As doors are typically 36-38" wide (nominally 3ft, or more), then the passage must be nominally 9ft wide going by this very rough approximation.

Thank you Jon. Yes, I can see what you mean, and it is the angle of the shot that throws me off. Actually, Richard's model shows the opening more clearly than the photo, so the true width is easier to visualize. I wish the photographer had moved a few feet up the street and taken a straight-on shot of Dutfield's Yard to document the scene of a famous murder. Of course, it's always possible that he didn't know of it, which begs the question, why was the original photo, and one showing the flats on Berner St., taken at all?

Thanks Richard, I'm looking forward to seeing your video and the finished product.

Dr. John