What's the compelling feature?

[Ally]

I am not convinced Stride was a Ripper victim. The arguments are not convincing on either side.

Saying that they were all the same profession, relative age and living in the same vicinity is not sufficient. Recently in Chicago a 15 year old student was shot walking to a convenience store, a couple of hours later, an 18 year old student was shot and killed walking home from classes. By the logic in the above posts, they both must have been killed by the same person.

If one presumes that JtR had sufficient control over himself, to be scared of being captured and therefore would have run off when he was interrupted, one has to wonder if he would have recovered sufficiently to try it all over again less than an hour later.

There is no proof on either side whether she was or was not a Ripper victim, therefore doubt of her inclusion is logical.

[Tom_Wescott]

Good post, Mitch. It prompts me to add to my above list something I should have included in the first place:

Victimology: Women of the same age, same profession, living in the same vicinity.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Mitch Rowe]

What is the compelling feature that allows this murder to be classified as a Canonical?

The fact that the two murders were commited something like an hour apart from each other gives me 99% assurety that they were commited by the same hand. This is far more than coincidence to me. Couple that with Diemschutz story. The fact that it seems the Ripper went out of his way to find Eddowes. And the fact that it seems JTR was moving back into the Rippers "territory" after killing Eddowes is more than enough for me to say I am 99.9% sure JTR killed them both. Not to even mention the victimology. Stride was the type of victim JTR was after. It seems as if Stride was taking a client into Dutfields yard for service.

All this stuff adds up to tell a reasonable tale of what happened that night.
Stride having been killed by some-one other than JTR that night dont make much sense.

[Tom_Wescott]

In the event someone does not realize they are being hoodwinked by Perry Mason, I'll spend a couple of minutes to point out only a few of the reasons why Liz Stride was, is, and will be considered a Ripper victim. I will do this by comparing her murder to the one just prior to hers - Annie Chapmans.

Kill Zone: Both women were killed in a yard, in a dark corner, immediately next to the exit. Windows overlooked both sites.

Witness Evidence: Albert Cadosch, whom it's generally agreed overheard Chapman with her killer, reported hearing a quiet conversation, followed by a quiet 'no'. A moment later he heard a thud against the fence. Israel Schwartz reported seeing a man and woman talking quietly, the woman fell, uttered a quiet 'no'. Essentially, Cadosch heard what Schwartz saw, but with two different women.

The Murder: Both women were turned to their left sides before having their throats cut. The evidence of both wounds indicated skill and comfort with the knife. It was much, much darker in Berner Street, so the killer's vision would have been severely compromised. Neither victim struggled.

Crime Scene Evidence: Both women had personal belongings in their hand or near their person, as did Kate Eddowes. Annie Chapman was robbed of her rings, possibly before death. There's good reason to believe Stride was relieved of her money. Certain activity seems to have occurred before death in each of the three cases suggesting the same perpetrator.

The only tangible argument for excluding Stride is that she was not mutilated below the neck. Of course, this requires accepting that the Ripper would not leave a crime scene early to prevent being captured, although he seems to have done just this in Buck's Row. It also requires accepting that each of his victims should end up looking exactly the same, with the same extent of damage done to them, even though no two of the five cases are alike at all.

The Ripper killed Stride earlier in the evening than he did Nichols/Chapman/Kelly. Likewise, Eddowes was killed earlier in the evening. The one evening of the year the Ripper struck so early, an imitator also happened to strike? Or does it make more sense that the earlier start allowed for two victims?

If someone other than Perry Mason and the Swedes have read Perry's posts and read this one and are still just as convinced that Stride was NOT a Ripper victim, I'd be curious to hear why that is.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I understand the point you make Dan, but not all we have to review is scientific data, there are estimated timings everywhere in these cases. Im not suggesting that Blackwell nailed the conclusion to the minute, just that he was probably capable of estimating the cut time based on the fact he is on scene within 30 minutes of it. Much different than estimating a TOD hours or a day later.

It appears that even if some accounts are a few minutes off, not all would skew towards creating a narrow window of only seconds from the cut to the cart. If he was interrupted, he had to only have just made that cut, because it seems he usually works quickly after that.

I think even with some times being estimated Blackwell had a watch, and Diemshu(i)tz had a time source. That they werent syncronized isnt a huge issue....we are talking about a 10 minute window by the medical estimate, and it ends minutes before 1am.

Had Blackwells watch and the Post Office clock been off by 10 minutes, an issue, but were probably talking about only a few minutes discrepancy, if any. It would seem her throat was cut before 1:00am no matter how you adjust the times. It had to be cut at, or just after 1 to allow for Diemshu(i)tz to interrupt...and that doesnt seem to be the case.

Best regards.

Michael,

You pose an excellent question here. From that standpoint, I would say that Stride doesn't fit. In order to put her in the canon, several things must be added together, and not least would be the hysteria of the moment. There isn't a single feature that stands out.


Mike (The Good One)

Thanks Mike, Im hoping the phrasing of this question is less prejudicial than some of my other posts regarding Ms Stride, and I believe its quite interesting once you really have to answer it.

Cheers Mike.

[Dan Norder]

Saying that Stride's murder couldn't have been interrupted because it was supposedly committed four minutes before Diemschitz showed up presupposes that any of the time estimates of the witnesses would have been accurate down to the second. You're simply fooling yourself if you think they are anything close to being as exact as that. Hell, all the things Diemschitz did between bringing the cart down Berner Street and the doctor making his estimate of time of death doesn't even seem at all likely to be able to fit within the mere minutes being described above.

Usually when people try to come up with timetables and arguments like this they are just so completely beyond realistic that it's not even funny. It's like the people trying to interpret the video of JFK being shot down to frame by frame, except without a video to work off of and no reason to think any of the times mentioned in reports would be accurate within five or ten minutes, let alone down to the minute.

[The Good Michael]

Michael,

You pose an excellent question here. From that standpoint, I would say that Stride doesn't fit. In order to put her in the canon, several things must be added together, and not least would be the hysteria of the moment. There isn't a single feature that stands out.


Mike (The Good One)

[perrymason]

As Im sure has been discussed ad infinitum, Elizabeth Stride is the only alleged Ripper victim that has a witnessed assault upon her person, 15 minutes prior to, and mere feet from the discovery of her death. Elizabeth is also the only alleged Ripper victim that has a single wound.

By the statements taken by Wess, Eagle, Mr and Mrs Diemshu(i)tz, Lave, and Fanny Mortimer, it would appear that other than Israel Schwartz at 12:45, no-one saw anything in front of the gates, or in the yard, from 12:40 until a pony shies at the entrance at 1am. Arriving shortly after 1:10, Dr Blackwell examined the woman as she lay, and by 1:16 by his own watch, proclaimed that the woman was cut within the last 30 minutes, perhaps as recently as 20 minutes prior to this conclusion. The doctor was a Senior Medical Man, and was attempting to set a time of a throat cut within a ten minute window, but within the past 30 minutes. I believe this would be within his skill set to do. Approximately. With a 10 minute window.

That evidence says Liz was cut no later than 12:56am, perhaps as early as 12:46, when Schwartz leaves the scene.

What is the compelling feature that allows this murder to be classified as a Canonical?

My best regards all.