What's the compelling feature?

[Ben]

Hi Obsever,

Here's a contemporary sketch of Kidney:

http://photos.casebook.org/displayim...at=11&pos=-464

Maybe Im wrong about the potential for Kidney as Jack.

Pure fiction, but I think a decent story.....

He is a gentile, he may have come across "his" woman....."I think she liked me better than any other man"...waiting for a date with a Jew outside a Jewish Socialists Club...lets say he is anti-semetic, as were many gentiles in these neighbourhoods, and he blames the Jew for turning Liz's head, forcing him to have to kill her due to the shame of an ex maybe leaving him for a Jew, and her wanton ways, perhaps seeing this Jewish man on the side for while first.

He finds her, she is insolent, he is furious and disgusted with her, cuts her throat where he finds her, and leaves. He walks for 10 -15 minutes, then finds an unfortunate hanging about. Still steaming after his encounter, he decides tonight will be a Ripper night, although perhaps he didnt set out to kill at all...until learning of Liz's debauchery.

He does what Jack does with Kate, goes home with the bag of goods, then decides Liz being killed on Jewish property might be a good thing....run those socialist Jews out of the neighbourhood....hell, they might as well have killed her themselves, having forced him to do it by taking his woman.

He goes back out with an apron piece in his pocket...nobody takes notice of him, he's a local fella and out at night often, and finds one of the most concentrated sections of Jewish residents, The Model Dwellings off Goulston and its surrounds, and he tosses the apron down and crouching near it he writes on the wall " The Juewes/Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing".....mispelling the word Jew due to his literacy and lack of concern how the word is spelled, so he just spells phonetically, and using the word "will" because the blame that he alleges they will avoid has not become public knowledge yet....it is something they "will" avoid blame for.

As I said, not a totally disfunctional story, for Liz's and Kates murder anyway, and the GSG. But without anything I know of as real evidence to support it.

Cheers all.

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Hi ObserverThen, by going on to complete the Double Event he's also multiplying by a factor of "N" the number of witnesses who saw him that night; he's staying out on the streets where he knows the police, in increased numbers, will be out looking for him; he also commits the cardinal sin of offering a potential link to a victim. In so doing, he creates a situation whereby inquiries into either Stride's or Eddowes' story might lead to his capture (more likely Stride's, if he was known to her).

He compounds this by killing again that night, effectively cementing Stride's murder as one half of a Double "Ripper" Event. Why do this, when he could have "silenced" Liz with a bog-standard throat-cut, thereby throwing some suspicion away from hers being a "Ripper" murder, and walked away to kill (and mutilate) another day?

But what about blood lust clouding his view Sam?Also looking at Chapmans murder I'd say he's a risk taker. Perhaps subconciously he wanted to be apprehended. I don't know, I think it was Kidney.

Hi Mike

Seems we both see a possible ex-lover connection here Observer.

It would satisfactorily answer a bunch of questions, but.....is BSM a candidate for Kidney physically? Or would we need for him to arrive after Schwartz and BSM?

Cheers

Is there a description of Kidney anywhere? I know there is a line drawing

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Observer

But what if he's Jack the Ripper hell bent on murdering Stride?

Then, by going on to complete the Double Event he's also multiplying by a factor of "N" the number of witnesses who saw him that night; he's staying out on the streets where he knows the police, in increased numbers, will be out looking for him; he also commits the cardinal sin of offering a potential link to a victim. In so doing, he creates a situation whereby inquiries into either Stride's or Eddowes' story might lead to his capture (more likely Stride's, if he was known to her).

He compounds this by killing again that night, effectively cementing Stride's murder as one half of a Double "Ripper" Event. Why do this, when he could have "silenced" Liz with a bog-standard throat-cut, thereby throwing some suspicion away from hers being a "Ripper" murder, and walked away to kill (and mutilate) another day?

Seems we both see a possible ex-lover connection here Observer.

It would satisfactorily answer a bunch of questions, but.....is BSM a candidate for Kidney physically? Or would we need for him to arrive after Schwartz and BSM?

Cheers

[Observer]

Hi Jon

Hi Observer

I can only attempt to answer your last question:

Why no mutilations - this is one of the facts that make BS man even more likey to have been her killer. BS Man saw Schwartz hurrying away after his initial assault upon Stride, the most obvious conclusion to reach from this would be that help would be arriving,there were three coppers nearby.BS Man knew he didn`t have the four minutes to mutilate - only BS Man would have known this. If Jack turned up after BS Man had gone he would not have been aware of Schwartz running for help.So, in a perverse bit of reasoning BS Man had to have been her killer,and the lack of mutilations explained ?

Yes, and the fact that he was no Jack the Ripper, Micheal Kidney perhaps?

all the best

Observer

Hi Jeff, Fisherman,

Im not opposed to Jack having known some, or perhaps all of the Canon. They all lived at one time in Spitalfield I believe, and if Jack was a night frequenter, it seems quite possible they would have at least seen each other around.

I dont know that acquainted though needs to extend to friend, lover or regular customer,.. and as Fisherman pointed out which I agree with, there seems to be an indication that Liz and her killer, or at least Liz and BSM, were not unfamiliar with each other. His grabbing her leading her into the street might be that familiarity at work.

I think the circumstantial evidence suggests that dire need prompted the women taking men into dark corners while the murders were occurring, so we dont need to assume he kept getting them to do that because they knew him.

With Liz, we would have a very simple explanation for all the circumstances in Lizs case, as far as Im concerned, if BSM at all resembled Kidney, and we could place Kidney at that scene at 12:45am. I think that kind of relationship would answer a lot, the staying in the location despite being "tossed" to the ground, the idea that she would go into the dark yard with him after that, the cashous, and the single cut,....indicating someone wanted her dead or had hatred for her.

What if BSM could be Kidney, and he learned she had told her lodging house friends that she wasnt coming home that night, and that she maybe had a new man in her life? Or someone who is very close with Kidney and drunk, finding her waiting for her new man while his friend Michael is brokenhearted.

Just supposin...but I do think that fits the circumstances better than "Jack" ....who I do not believe Kidney was.

Cheers and best regards.

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Hi Ben,But until the point where BS allegedly committed murder he had nothing to fear from anyone's imminent return, as I explained the other day. He could simply have walked away leaving Stride bruised and shaken, but alive, and he need have feared no further retribution for doing so.

But what if he's Jack the Ripper hell bent on murdering Stride?

I know we have had the argument to the effect that the Ripper would not have acted in such a fashion, but to be fair we don't know how the Ripper would have reacted to resistance from one of his victims, there is no precedent. Don't get me wrong, I personnaly believe that Stride's murder was a domestic for want of a better word, but the Ripper can not be ruled out on the grounds that he was up and active that night.

PS

Kidney has to be a contender

all the best

Observer

[Fisherman]

First and foremost, Michael, you hit the head on the nail when you write:

"We do not have a situation that requires Jack as an answer".

As for your bid: "Surely a very likely scenario if the two were acquainted, and even if he intended to straighten her out as a stranger for refusing his advances", I think that you may be right - but the probability that they were aquainted is the better alternative, since she would not have been to keen on going inside the yard with a total stranger that had just manhandled her. If it happened, he would probably have forced her in there, and then she would have resisted if I am not mistaken. Moreover, she would not have taken her cachous out in that kind of a threatening scenario, would she?

All suggestions that it was Jack and that he was interrupted must of course ponder the fact that it seems that the interruption came at that very split second when he slit her throat, taking away some of the usual Ripperish ferociousness of the cut, and leaving us with a comparatively shallow one.

The best, Michael!
Fisherman

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi again Fisherman,

Based on Polly and Annie, it would appear the man they were looking for acted as perhaps a client, and when alone with the victim, within the first few seconds maybe with Kate, he struck. Based on what we know about Liz, the man seen assaulting her just prior to her death is by far the most likely suspect, as he is the last man seen in her company, as was Lawendes man, and Mary Ann Cox's. There is a suggestion that the two might be acquainted by the fact that Liz doesnt clearly call for help when they first interact and she falls, which is contrary to what we surmise about Jack and his victims. And she is cut only once...with what must have been at least minutes left before he even could be disturbed.

Best regards.

Agreed Michael, However we do not know for sure that Jack wasnt known to his victims, in fact it would make far more sense if he was known to his victims and thought of as relatively harmless...

In fact JtR could have been fairly harmless until 'God' interfered and started telling him what to do...I think we should be careful when trying to rationalize the killers motives....I dont think we can conclude JtR motives were Rational..

Perhaps he just wanted to talk to Liz about his laundary?

Yours Jeff

Michael asks:

"What would make him wait 14 minutes?"

You know my stance, Michael - if the man who killed her was BS man, and if the two were lovers or at least aquainted to each other, then I think it would be very plausible that they stepped into the yard to straighten things out in private after the initial row.
That would explain why heaps of time was allowed to pass by without any cutting action. Just as it would explain why she found the situation unthreatening and familiar enough to take her cachous out.

The best, Michael!
Fisherman

Hi again Fisherman,

Surely a very likely scenario if the two were acquainted, and even if he intended to straighten her out as a stranger for refusing his advances. My point was that The Ripper need not be involved at all under those circumstances, and The Ripper, we believe, kills women he doesnt know...and only to further his objectives, which include some aspect of the PM mutilations.

We do not have a situation that requires Jack as an answer, we dont have evidence the man who killed Liz had any other ideas than simply that, and we know that she doesnt have any of what we could refer to as "trademark" Ripper PM wounds. And we also have her in the company of an "assailant", in or just outside an empty yard she is found dead in in less than 15 minutes, when we no longer can account for her exact location and status. And she may well be dead before Goldstein walks by, let alone when Diemshutz pulls in.

I think, my opinion of course, but to make a suggestion that the killer was Jack and yet spent any amount of time over 1 or 2 minutes alone with a victim and didnt kill her and start cutting is to disregard any evidence that is suggested by the first two appointments to the Canon.

Based on Polly and Annie, it would appear the man they were looking for acted as perhaps a client, and when alone with the victim, within the first few seconds maybe with Kate, he struck. Based on what we know about Liz, the man seen assaulting her just prior to her death is by far the most likely suspect, as he is the last man seen in her company, as was Lawendes man, and Mary Ann Cox's. There is a suggestion that the two might be acquainted by the fact that Liz doesnt clearly call for help when they first interact and she falls, which is contrary to what we surmise about Jack and his victims. And she is cut only once...with what must have been at least minutes left before he even could be disturbed.

Best regards.

[Fisherman]

Michael asks:

"What would make him wait 14 minutes?"

You know my stance, Michael - if the man who killed her was BS man, and if the two were lovers or at least aquainted to each other, then I think it would be very plausible that they stepped into the yard to straighten things out in private after the initial row.
That would explain why heaps of time was allowed to pass by without any cutting action. Just as it would explain why she found the situation unthreatening and familiar enough to take her cachous out.

The best, Michael!
Fisherman

Hello Micheal,

As I pointed out, it isn’t a matter of interpretation; it is a matter of fact.

( I know people say things like that all the time on Casebook but in this case it's true)

No medical knowledge existed that would allow Blackwell to be as precise as you claim.

Also, you might want to read the rest of the Inquest paragraph you quoted.
Blackwell repeats the exact phrase, making his meaning crystal clear,

"Dr Phillips arrived from twenty minutes to half an hour after my arrival."

If you really want to use Blackwell;

He said Elizabeth Stride would have died within one and a half minutes of the throat being cut. Allow around five minutes to bleed out and you have an idea when the attack took place.
Spooner says she was still bleeding when he checked her. Ergo, minus roughly seven minutes from his check-time and you have the murder time.

Is it full proof? No.
But it is the evidence as we know it and any alternative 21st century theories need a sound explanation to justify them.

Does this connect Stride to the ripper? I’ve no idea I’m a fence sitter in that debate. It does add fuel to those who say he was interrupted, as the timing is spot on. On the other hand it doesn’t rule out Broad Shoulders or Pipe Man but it does decrease their odds.

Hopefully that corrects the misconceptions now I’m interested in hearing some good anti/pro ripper theories!

Thanks for your time.

Hi Dusty,

Personally I wouldnt accept a premise or two that you have Dusty. If Im correct in my interpretation of his remarks and his skills, I believe it was within his capacity to isolate a 10 minute period of the preceeding half hour within which the cut likely took place. I believe his adding a half hour to his 20 minute remarks does frame a time window like that, and even if he were unskilled, hes still probably given himself a 33% chance of being correct if its clear the overall time was 30 minutes or less by the physical evidence.

When you offered his later quote regarding Phillips, the only thing missing in the quote I posted is the word "from", which I bracketed. But the implication is clear that is what he was saying, in my opinion. From the time of his arrival.

Spooner may have seen blood running, or he may have seen a dim light cast upon a dark river that appeared to him to move. He has no expertise in that regard. And review the times he gives...not infallible.

Your time on death from cut time is about right, so is the bleed out timing, which makes it possible she was cut within 5 minutes of Diemshutz arrival as she was bleeding then, and since Spooner is there at approx 1:06, the 5 minutes has elapsed even if she was cut the second Diemshutz pulled in. Which makes little sense, if he heard a cart on cobblestones growing louder and louder leading up to that. If she was cut at that moment, Diemshutz would have seen a strong flow, possibly a spray too. He didnt say that.

Thats why I have stated that since the latest time "from" his arrival, or earliest on the clock, by Blackwell says she was cut around 12:46am, and the earliest time "from" his arrival that he mentions specifically is a 20 minute period, Its not logical to conclude he meant to say she was killed at 1am or just prior. He didnt approxinate the time he gave that opinion to say around 1:15, he attempted to be as accurate as he could be. And I dont believe the evidence indicates that his intentions were to say she was killed closer to 1am than say 12:50 or 12:51am.

I believe its 20 minutes to a half hour that is the essential part, not the "not more than", or omitting a "from", that may be the result of non-verbatim...or non-transcript quoting. Its my understanding the version I quoted was from transcripts.

But as you say...and I acknowleged, it appears that possible interruption of the killer would have to be the leading contender for "compelling reasons" as far as a Canon designation. And thats IMHO a very weak reason for inclusion. And it cant be proven with what Blackwell said, regardless of your take on what he intended.

....plus, if Fanny Mortimer had seen Liz at, outside or around the gates between 12:46 and close to 1am, we could imagine the killer hasnt got her alone yet. But she is not visible...we are told the yard was empty at 12:40am, and BSM and Liz are not visible. If she isnt being cut by Jack yet, or BSM, then what is he waiting for? 'Jack" has the empty yard, a poor whore, and Im sure his knife. Do you think he hesitated when he noticed many windows looked down into the yard at Hanbury? Some were said to be open at the time. Does he hesitate with Polly...cutting her in plain sight of anyone who might enter that street from either end? When he gets them alone, he kills, then cuts. Liz and her killer might have been alone in an empty yard at approx 12:46am. What would make him wait 14 minutes?

He gets Kate alone, kills her, guts her, slices her face, cuts out her left kidney from her front, pockets her organs and leaves in perhaps 6-8 minutes total, without being seen by two patrolmen who review the square intermittently from different entrances.

Best regards.

[drstrange169]

Hello Micheal,

As I pointed out, it isn’t a matter of interpretation; it is a matter of fact.

( I know people say things like that all the time on Casebook but in this case it's true)

No medical knowledge existed that would allow Blackwell to be as precise as you claim.

Also, you might want to read the rest of the Inquest paragraph you quoted.
Blackwell repeats the exact phrase, making his meaning crystal clear,

"Dr Phillips arrived from twenty minutes to half an hour after my arrival."

If you really want to use Blackwell;

He said Elizabeth Stride would have died within one and a half minutes of the throat being cut. Allow around five minutes to bleed out and you have an idea when the attack took place.
Spooner says she was still bleeding when he checked her. Ergo, minus roughly seven minutes from his check-time and you have the murder time.

Is it full proof? No.
But it is the evidence as we know it and any alternative 21st century theories need a sound explanation to justify them.

Does this connect Stride to the ripper? I’ve no idea I’m a fence sitter in that debate. It does add fuel to those who say he was interrupted, as the timing is spot on. On the other hand it doesn’t rule out Broad Shoulders or Pipe Man but it does decrease their odds.

Hopefully that corrects the misconceptions now I’m interested in hearing some good anti/pro ripper theories!

Thanks for your time.

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"It could have lacked tails, Fish, I grant ye, but given that Marshall was able to specify "cutaway" in very poor lighting conditions and from a distance, my guess is that the garment must have been rather obviously a cutaway, and the more obvious and conventional cutaways were characterized by a tail. But I hope my "could have" is taken on board."

All fair and square, Ben! And yes, you are of course absolutely right that SOMETHING must have been there to make Marshall characterize that jacket as a cutaway. What that something may have been if it was NOT tails, is of course open to discussion.

Initially, and without having dug to the bottom of it all, I can see two obvious options:

1. The tailoring of the front. When looking at the different jackets offered as cutaways, it is obvious that they all have that same trait of the lower pieces on the front having been cut away. The extent to which this has been done varies, however - some jackets have lost only a few square inches to that rounding of the lower outline, whereas others lack quite substantial pieces of cloth there. Owing to the extent of how much was cut away, I think that there is a good chance that this trait could have been enough.

2. Cutaway jackets seem to have two buttons (of varying size from jacket to jacket) sewn into the back of them in most cases. If there were two such discernible buttons on this particular jacket, maybe that could have been the reason for identifying it as a cutaway.

All the best, Ben!
Fisherman