When was Elizabeth Stride actually killed?

[c.d.]

"We're pretty much short of options aren't we?
Stride either held onto those cachous in a lightning attack where her fingers momentarily clenched or, the killer placed them in her hand after the attack.
Which is the most likely?"

Hello Wickerman,

You seem to be referring to her actual death. The reference to her holding on to the cachous is being made in respect to her being thrown down by the B.S. man.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Abby.

"Sounds like she could have been a pretty damning witness after all, no?"

No. Unless, of course, the charge were malicious shoving. And, as we all know, that can get you a stern lecture from a beat copper.

Cheers.
LC

"Malicious shoving?" Good one, Lynn. That's a classic.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Hello Tom,

"Diemshits could not see the wound to her throat from his vantage."

I've never seen an account of what exactly his vantage was when he looked with the candle, but he definitely claimed to have seen the cut throat,

"I hurried into the Club to see my "missis." I saw her inside the door, and hurriedly called some of the members of the club, who at once came down. You know what we found, Sir. The poor creature's throat was horribly cut."
(Echo Oct 01)

Stride was laid essentially facing the wall, the distance between her face and the wall was a matter of inches. Therefore all the witnesses were assembled behind her, among them the doctors, who could see the throat wound. That being the case, I fail to see why Diemschitz couldn't see what the doctors could see from the same vantage point.

Hello Dusty.

"I'd be inclined to agree if it wasn't for those damn cachous."

Precisely.

"It's so difficult to imagine a scenario where Mrs Stride was thrown around before death and still chose to hold on to breath freshers."

Or, to go for them. A fair analogy can be had with a cigarette. Not likely to stop for a fag in the midst of a fracas.

Cheers.
LC

We're pretty much short of options aren't we?
Stride either held onto those cachous in a lightning attack where her fingers momentarily clenched or, the killer placed them in her hand after the attack.
Which is the most likely?

[lynn cates]

analogy

Hello Dusty.

"I'd be inclined to agree if it wasn't for those damn cachous."

Precisely.

"It's so difficult to imagine a scenario where Mrs Stride was thrown around before death and still chose to hold on to breath freshers."

Or, to go for them. A fair analogy can be had with a cigarette. Not likely to stop for a fag in the midst of a fracas.

Cheers.
LC

[drstrange169]

Hello Abby,

I'd be inclined to agree if it wasn't for those damn cachous.

It's so difficult to imagine a scenario where Mrs Stride was thrown around before death and still chose to hold on to breath freshers. Ditto to Jeff's notion.

[drstrange169]

Hello Tom,

"Diemshits could not see the wound to her throat from his vantage."

I've never seen an account of what exactly his vantage was when he looked with the candle, but he definitely claimed to have seen the cut throat,

"I hurried into the Club to see my "missis." I saw her inside the door, and hurriedly called some of the members of the club, who at once came down. You know what we found, Sir. The poor creature's throat was horribly cut."
(Echo Oct 01)



"...What he saw was blood in the gutter, and that gutter had water from the 11:30pm rain in it..."

Do you have a reference for the gutter being waterlogged? Based just on the evidence I've read, I'd strongly dispute that.



"...It was Edward Spooner who thought she might still have been bleeding, but he moved her head and so naturally, blood pooled in the neck would release and it would appear as bleeding."

I absolutely agree. Mrs Stride would have been well and truly dead by that point and none of the body organs would have been working.



"...The best evidence we have puts her murder at about 1am, but the collective evidence isn't what I'd call conclusive..."

That's a "me too" from ... er... me too.

[lynn cates]

lecture

Hello Abby.

"Sounds like she could have been a pretty damning witness after all, no?"

No. Unless, of course, the charge were malicious shoving. And, as we all know, that can get you a stern lecture from a beat copper.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

While I here what you are saying. The most logical conclusion, if Swartz actually witnessed the murder, was that he witnessed a psychotic attack..much more like the type of attacks we today see as spree kiillings. Younge desoffected men attacking their communities or schools..

Jack is a Psychotic

He picks and attacks Stride at Random, apparently.

You are all missing the 'Mind set'

Yours Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Hello Lynn,

Thanks for pointing that out, "witness" was a poor wording choice on my part. Obviously the killer had a reason, albeit not necessarily a sane one.

(I actually have one variant theory that Mrs Stride was murdered because she was a witness, but that's another story;-)

I actually thought your initial idea of the ripper cutting her throat to get rid of a witness as possible.

She is a witness to him, who attacked her.

and if you think that the peaked cap man seen with her by various witnesses was the same man, then she spent considerable time with him, maybe knew his name and that when she would not go into a dark alley with him, he physically attacked her.

sounds like she could have been a pretty damming witness after all, no?

[lynn cates]

theory

Hello Dusty. Thanks.

If you ever care to share . . .

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Lynn,

Yes, no pleasure, just disposing of a witness fast as possible.

Diemshits was reported as saying the blood was flowing when he looked with the candle so we know the attack was within minutes of that viewing.

Diemshits could not see the wound to her throat from his vantage. What he saw was blood in the gutter, and that gutter had water from the 11:30pm rain in it. It was Edward Spooner who thought she might still have been bleeding, but he moved her head and so naturally, blood pooled in the neck would release and it would appear as bleeding. She was most certainly dead by that point. The best evidence we have puts her murder at about 1am, but the collective evidence isn't what I'd call conclusive.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[drstrange169]

Hello Lynn,

Thanks for pointing that out, "witness" was a poor wording choice on my part. Obviously the killer had a reason, albeit not necessarily a sane one.

(I actually have one variant theory that Mrs Stride was murdered because she was a witness, but that's another story;-)

[lynn cates]

witness

Hello Dusty. Thanks.

"just disposing of a witness fast as possible."

Witness to what?

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

This.

Hello Lynn,

Yes, no pleasure, just disposing of a witness fast as possible.

Diemshits was reported as saying the blood was flowing when he looked with the candle so we know the attack was within minutes of that viewing.

This is really important, if truthful.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Chuckle.

Ps I like tacos too. I prefer the soft ones.

Oh yes, soft is the way to go.