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  • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Who's 'he' - Swanson or Goldstein? Are you suggesting that Swanson substituted his own estimation for that in the witness's statement, or that the witness (Goldstein) did not give a statement and so Swanson just decided to fill in this gap, by guessing?
    Swanson. The clue is that he said about 1.00. That means that he was estimating.

    Point me to a direct quote from Goldstein. Or to a quote that said ‘Goldstein said…’
    Regards

    Sir Herlock Sholmes.

    “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

      Unless you regard the witnessing of a PC on his beat as amounting to something unusual, you're contradicting yourself.



      There's an obvious problem with this. Several times in the past I've made a point based on the following evidence.

      Mrs Diemschitz: It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard. It was, however, very dark at the time, and he might, in consequence, have failed to see any such object on the ground.

      Morris Eagle: I returned about twenty minutes to one. I tried the front door, but, finding it closed, I went through the gateway into the yard, reaching the club in that way.
      ...
      Can you say whether the deceased was lying there then?-I could not say for certain; it was very dark near the gates, and only the lights from the club shone into the yard.


      It would seem that Eagle was the last to enter the club before the discovery. Therefore, it would seem that Lave must have been at the gates, very near the time that Stride was seen on the street, talking to a man. Any chance that Lave went a bit further than he said he did?
      I’m loathe to mention again how ‘normal’ it is for people to miss seeing other people because you appear reluctant to acknowledge it but…

      We don’t know exactly when Lave was or wasn’t in the yard because we get differing versions but if we assume sometime approximately 12.30-12.40.

      We know for a fact that Smith passed (although we can’t be certain as to the time) and we can be certain that the couple existed.

      We don’t know if Lave would have mentioned it if he’d seen Smith but I’d have expected him to have mentioned seeing a couple so near to the time that the body of a woman was found. Who knows though?

      While he was out there we don’t know where he was at any given time but we know that he moved around and didn’t stand sentry at the gateway.

      So we’re into possible scenarios again.

      So he could have gone to the gateway at 12.30 for a few seconds and seen nothing. He then goes back into the yard.

      Is it so remarkable that he used the loo but was too embarrassed to say “I was in the loo for 5 minutes or so”?

      Or he was simpy walking around the yard and was near to the printing office?

      So while he was inside the yard (or in the loo) around 12.31 the couple arrive and stand talking. Around 12.33 Smith passed and sees them. Around 12.34 the couple move on. Around 12.35 Eagle returns.

      That only means that Lave was at the rear of the yard or in the loo for 4 minutes or so.

      He strolls back to the gateway; sees nothing and goes back into the club at around 12.40.

      Where is the problem with that?
      Regards

      Sir Herlock Sholmes.

      “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
        A year or two ago George did a recreation of Deimshutz's events upon arrival (the getting down from his cart, checking, etc), and he timed that sequence at 1m 50 seconds.

        Now, if Eagle heads straight from the yard...


        ...the above all looks pretty workable to me. Opinions may vary.
        Hi Jeff,

        Thanks for your measurements and giving me George’s recreation, but the minimum of 3 minutes between Diemshutz arriving and Smith arriving was just a very bare minimum, should one have the idea that there was little time between the arrivals of these 2 men. I was counting 1 minute before Eagle ran out the yard towards Commercial Road and 2 minutes between that and him arriving back at the yard with Lamb & Co.

        In reality, my view of the actual number of minutes between these two arriving at the yard corresponds with your estimate – with all the uncertainties it incorporates.

        Of course, in all of this one question that remains is: did Eagle initially turn left on Commercial Road or did he immediately turn right? After all, if we assume that Kozebrodski first searched along Fairclough Street and Eagle only left, say, 10-20 seconds after Diemshutz ran out & went along Fairclough, then Kozebrodski was behind Eagle and had to catch up with him before running up to Lamb.

        And, what has always struck me as odd, is why didn’t PC Smith see or hear anything? It’s clear that he must have been covering that part of his beat that was directly west of Berner Street when Diemshutz arrived in the yard. So, he would have either been in Backchurch Lane between Fairclough Street and Commercial Road or on Commercial Road between Backchurch Lane and Gower Street when the running & screaming began.

        If in Backchurch Lane, he was only a maximum of 95 m/310 ft from Berner Street (at the south end), not even 70 m/230 ft halfway and less than 60 m/195 ft at the top of that street. If he had just turned the corner of Backchurch and Fairclough, then why didn’t he hear Kozebrodski & Diemshutz running and screaming? If he was further up Backchurch, why didn’t he hear Eagle screaming? Why didn’t he hear him through Sander Street? And why didn’t he hear him either when he’d reached Commercial Road if he was then still in Backchurch?

        Why wouldn’t he have heard anything if he’d already reached Commercial Road when Eagle reached it from Berner Street? On that end of the street, Backchurch is only 60 m/195 ft away from Berner. Why didn’t hear or see anything of Eagle, Kozebrodski, Lamb & PC 426 H between where Lamb was approached and the corner of Berner Street?


        The only place to make sense where he could have been when Eagle arrived on Commercial Road would have been on the last 25 m or 82 feet before reaching Gower Street, beyond a slight bend in Commercial Road. That would have been some 145 m or 475 ft from the eastern top corner of Berner. But that would be quite a small window for him to 'oblivious' to the running & screaming furhter east along Commercial Road. The only other thing I can come up with is that he was somewhere inside, having a cup of tea, perhaps.

        Cheers,
        Frank
        "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
        Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
          Oh, one thing I should have mentioned, is that the above estimated arrival time for PC Lamb of 1:05 (based upon Deimshutz's 1:00 statement), results in a very good fit with PC Lamb then saying that the doctor arrived about 10 minutes later, given Dr. Blackwell arrived at 1:16. The difference of a minute is hardly a concern given we're dealing with estimations here. Even if one factors in the tendency to overestimate short temporal durations (I've posted the conversion table a few times), a 10 minute interval would, on average, represent a true interval of about 8 minutes. That still only leaves a 3 minute difference for the Doctor's arrival time, and there are arguments that PC Lamb may have mistook the arrival of Blackwell's assistant for the arrival of Blackwell himself, and the assistant arrives a few minutes before Blackwell (which would coincidently fit almost perfectly). Even if we set that possibility aside, an estimated time of arrival for the Doctor of 1:13 is more than acceptable given Blackwell arrives at 1:16 and is basing his time on a different clock (so the 1:13 and 1:16 may just reflect the difference between the clocks combined with the obvious error that any estimations like these are going to be associated with).

          What we are not seeing is any obvious discrepancies, although it would suggest that PC Smith's time is based upon a clock and/or an estimation that is a bit out by a few minutes. One thing to note is that PC Smith says it was 1:00 as he was heading towards, not at, Berner Street. So if he updates his time based upon a clock at Gower's Walk (speculation on my part on that), then it requires only around a 5 minute difference between clock readings, which is entirely reasonable given what we know about clocks of the time.

          - Jeff
          What also goes well with all of this, is the following timing given by the Irish Times of October 1:

          "The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock, and Dr. Phillips, of 2 Spital square, the divisional police surgeon, was immediately communicated with."

          Of course, it was Eagle who reached the Leman Street Police Station at that hour. The police station (through Fairclough Street, Backchurch Lane & Hooper Street) was some 510 meters or 1700 ft from Dutfield’s Yard, so you can do 'the math' of how long it could have taken Eagle to cover that distance.

          The best,
          Frank
          "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
          Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
            Hello Frank, good to hear from you.
            Thanks Andrew.

            Jeff recently stated that the distance along Berner St from Commercial Rd to Fairclough St, is 420 feet.
            Yes, it's 420 feet or 127 meters and from the top of Berner Street to Dutfield's Yard was 360 feet or 110 meters.

            Including all the side streets and courts off Backchurch Lane and between Berner and Backchurch and allowing for the fact that he may not have walked all the way along them, or not walked along some of them at all would give a distance of about 1730 metres. Taking 25–30 minutes would give a speed of between about 0.96m/s (2.15mph) and 1.15m/s (2.58mph). Including the courts between Berner Street and Batty Street and between Batty and Christian streets and again allowing for the fact that he may not have walked all the way along them, or not walked along some of them at all, would give a distance of about 1800 metres. This would give a speed of between about 1m/s (2.24mph) and 1.2m/s (2.68mph). Assuming that he walked up all the courts that I could recognise as such from the map and the full distance in each, would give a distance of about 2090m and mean he walked at a speed of between about 1.16m/s (2.6mph) and 1.39m/s (3.12mph).
            Seeing that 3 mph - if I'm not mistaken - was supposed to be the average speed of a bobby walking his beat, this looks good, Andrew.

            420 feet would be walked in 02:13 at 2.15mph, and in 01:32 at 3.12mph. Perhaps we could agree then, that Smith took about a minute and a half to walk from the top of Berner St, to the yard. He heard no call for police, and surely cannot have missed seeing the 4 men running into Berner St. I would suggest that the best-case scenario is that Smith was 2 minutes behind Lamb, but probably more like 3 or 4.
            That would correspond well enough with what I'd come up with: 110 m in 82 seconds at an avarage speed of 1.34 m/s or 3 mph. As for the rest: agreed all around!

            Cheers,
            Frank

            "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
            Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
              Hi Jeff,

              Thanks for your measurements and giving me George’s recreation, but the minimum of 3 minutes between Diemshutz arriving and Smith arriving was just a very bare minimum, should one have the idea that there was little time between the arrivals of these 2 men. I was counting 1 minute before Eagle ran out the yard towards Commercial Road and 2 minutes between that and him arriving back at the yard with Lamb & Co.

              In reality, my view of the actual number of minutes between these two arriving at the yard corresponds with your estimate – with all the uncertainties it incorporates.

              Of course, in all of this one question that remains is: did Eagle initially turn left on Commercial Road or did he immediately turn right? After all, if we assume that Kozebrodski first searched along Fairclough Street and Eagle only left, say, 10-20 seconds after Diemshutz ran out & went along Fairclough, then Kozebrodski was behind Eagle and had to catch up with him before running up to Lamb.

              And, what has always struck me as odd, is why didn’t PC Smith see or hear anything? It’s clear that he must have been covering that part of his beat that was directly west of Berner Street when Diemshutz arrived in the yard. So, he would have either been in Backchurch Lane between Fairclough Street and Commercial Road or on Commercial Road between Backchurch Lane and Gower Street when the running & screaming began.

              If in Backchurch Lane, he was only a maximum of 95 m/310 ft from Berner Street (at the south end), not even 70 m/230 ft halfway and less than 60 m/195 ft at the top of that street. If he had just turned the corner of Backchurch and Fairclough, then why didn’t he hear Kozebrodski & Diemshutz running and screaming? If he was further up Backchurch, why didn’t he hear Eagle screaming? Why didn’t he hear him through Sander Street? And why didn’t he hear him either when he’d reached Commercial Road if he was then still in Backchurch?

              Why wouldn’t he have heard anything if he’d already reached Commercial Road when Eagle reached it from Berner Street? On that end of the street, Backchurch is only 60 m/195 ft away from Berner. Why didn’t hear or see anything of Eagle, Kozebrodski, Lamb & PC 426 H between where Lamb was approached and the corner of Berner Street?


              The only place to make sense where he could have been when Eagle arrived on Commercial Road would have been on the last 25 m or 82 feet before reaching Gower Street, beyond a slight bend in Commercial Road. That would have been some 145 m or 475 ft from the eastern top corner of Berner. But that would be quite a small window for him to 'oblivious' to the running & screaming furhter east along Commercial Road. The only other thing I can come up with is that he was somewhere inside, having a cup of tea, perhaps.

              Cheers,
              Frank
              Hi Frank,

              Good post with lots of interesting things to think about. In short, I agree that PC Smith's lack of hearing anything needs to be explained, and may be a useful line to follow in terms of his possible location. I like your suggestions though, and if he was heading towards Gower, and not from Gower, then that would absorb some of the error I have attributed to clock sync, but maybe only around 20 seconds worth. I suppose one thing we don't know has to do with the acoustic properties of the area, and it is always possible some locations may be "sound deaf" to noise from where the men were. But since we can't know those details, the best we can do is estimate how far away he would need to be to miss the shouts of the men, then work out what locations fit that estimate. I suppose given the men on Fairclough are heading away from him, at least their shouts are directed in the wring direction. The men going to Commercial might not have shouted until arriving at Commercial ans spotting the police to the east. But that seems unlikely. I have always assumed the turned east, as if they turned west I would think they would have run into PC Smith.

              But then, we can't discount the cup of tea break somewhere. I could see 1 o'clock being a regular meeting time with someone, say a security guard, for a chin wag and hot drink. That might make the most sense, actually, even if it can't be proved. It is certainly something to consider though ( I think there is some indications PC Watkins and Morris seem to have done such things ). And if that is what he was doing, then the men could have first gone west, failed to find Smith on his break, only to then find Lamb to the east. That, though, would push Lamb's arrival further out, but maybe not by all that much, and maybe I over estimated other events prior to their departure.

              Hmm, lots to think about indeed. Thanks for that.

              - Jeff

              Comment


              • Originally posted by FrankO View Post

                What also goes well with all of this, is the following timing given by the Irish Times of October 1:

                "The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock, and Dr. Phillips, of 2 Spital square, the divisional police surgeon, was immediately communicated with."

                Of course, it was Eagle who reached the Leman Street Police Station at that hour. The police station (through Fairclough Street, Backchurch Lane & Hooper Street) was some 510 meters or 1700 ft from Dutfield’s Yard, so you can do 'the math' of how long it could have taken Eagle to cover that distance.

                The best,
                Frank
                Hmm, at an average walking speed of 3.1 mph, that would take about 6m 14s, making his arrival at the station 1:11. He could be expected to hurry a bit which would get it down to 1:10, but to be within a minute based on estimated times combined with clock issues is already pretty good in my books. Nice to see further testing continues to hold up, which is an encouraging sign.

                - Jeff

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                  I’ll repeat what I’ve said in other posts. If we’re looking for the most reliable time in Berner Street I’d suggest a Doctor using his own pocket watch who specifically logged the time as he arrived at the yard would be head and shoulders above the rest.

                  Blackwell arrived 1.16
                  Lamb arrived 10 minutes earlier so around 1.06
                  Eagle would have seen Lamb around a minute for their arrival at the yard, so around 1.05
                  This has Diemschitz returning at around 1.00

                  Smith arrived after Lamb. Therefore Smith’s 1.00 isn’t compatible with Diemschitz 1.00.

                  Different clocks poorly synchronised - problem solved. Why is this an issue apart from the fact that it doesn’t allow for Diemschitz being The Hooded Claw?
                  And, thanks to Frank”s post #304 we have this:

                  Irish Times of October 1:

                  "The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock, and Dr. Phillips, of 2 Spital square, the divisional police surgeon, was immediately communicated with.”

                  So we now have:

                  Blackwell arrived 1.16
                  Lamb despatches Eagle who gets to LS Station at 1.10 (a walk of 6 minutes…but a fast walk/run…no problem)
                  Lamb arrived 10 minutes earlier than Blackwell so around 1.06
                  Eagle would have seen Lamb around a minute for their arrival at the yard, so around 1.05
                  This has Diemschitz returning at around 1.00​

                  It all fits….annoying isn’t it.
                  Regards

                  Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                  “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                  Comment


                  • Another summing up…

                    Working back from the time that I think that most would have to admit to being the likeliest to have been correct/accurate - Dr. Blackwell (own watch, consulted on arrival) we can see that everything fits to a tee. The only question of course is Smith’s 1.00. As we know that he arrived after Lamb this can only mean one thing (unless Smith said ‘around 1.00’ but the ‘around’ was omitted in error) and that was that the clock that Smith went by was around 5 minutes behind the Brewer’s clock. With that simple suggestion we have a perfect fit for the events from the return of Diemschitz until the police at Leman Street were informed.

                    We have more than one perfectly workable scenarios explaining events around the incident which account for who saw or didn’t see (or hear) whatever.

                    This leaves us with The Three Stooges - Spooner, Kozebrodski and Heschberg.

                    Spooner said that he got to the yard at 12.35 and also 5 minutes before Lamb. If it was the case that he arrived at the yard at 12.35 (and it clearly wasn’t) then we have to adjust his time by by 10 minutes for Kozebrodski (if 12.35 then we have to assume close to 12.30 for the discovery - 12.30 to koz’s 12.40 is 10 minutes) And a full 15 minutes for Heschberg ( approx 12.30 discovery as per Spooner to Heschberg’s 12.45 so 15 minutes) Michael appears to think that while it’s unacceptable to allow a 5 minute margin for error elsewhere it’s ok to shunt Spooners time by 10-15 minutes.

                    But we know, as shown above that Lamb got to the yard around 1.06 (the evidence proves this beyond doubt) and Spooner arrived 5 minutes before him (as he claimed) then Spooner got to the yard just after 1.00 which ties in perfectly.

                    And as we know what time Lamb got there and we can therefore work out what time Eagle met him, we know that Louis arrived at around 1.00. The evidence proves this. We also know that Kozebrodski went looking for a Constable after Diemschitz had returned because he was with him. Therefore it had to have been just after 1.00. So his 12.40 is an obvious error.

                    Heschberg’s testimony (lacking even a touch of confidence) was also clearly mistaken.

                    11 witness all shown by evidence to prove a discovery time of around 1.00. Two were simply mistaken. I’m more than happy to go with the 11 as were the police (who clearly interviewed way more that 13 witness and were clear that the body was discovered at 1.00.)

                    As I said in my opening post….

                    Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery. It’s way past time we saw the towel being thrown in on this.
                    Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 04-09-2024, 04:03 PM.
                    Regards

                    Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                    “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                      Another summing up…
                      ...
                      Spooner said that he got to the yard at 12.35 and also 5 minutes before Lamb. If it was the case that he arrived at the yard at 12.35 (and it clearly wasn’t) then we have to adjust his time by by 10 minutes for Kozebrodski (if 12.35 then we have to assume close to 12.30 for the discovery - 12.30 to koz’s 12.40 is 10 minutes) And a full 15 minutes for Heschberg ( approx 12.30 discovery as per Spooner to Heschberg’s 12.45 so 15 minutes) Michael appears to think that while it’s unacceptable to allow a 5 minute margin for error elsewhere it’s ok to shunt Spooners time by 10-15 minutes.

                      But we know, as shown above that Lamb got to the yard around 1.06 (the evidence proves this beyond doubt) and Spooner arrived 5 minutes before him (as he claimed) then Spooner got to the yard just after 1.00 which ties in perfectly.
                      ...
                      Hi Herlock,

                      Just wanted to explore some of this a bit. In an earlier post I suggested that men start running around 2 minutes after Deimshutz's arrival. During the run along Fairclough to Grove is when Spooner joins them, so he would arrive at the yard at the time those runners get back.

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                      I measured the distance at 605 feet, so for the round trip, that's 1210 feet. At an average running pace (6.1 mph) that would require 2m 15s, getting Spooner at the yard around 1:04 (1:04:15 if you want to go to that precision).

                      PC Lamb we've estimated arrives around 1:06, so so roughly 2 m, or 1m 45 seconds, later by these calculations.

                      and if we go back to that table with regards to the ranges of true intervals that people will estimate at 5 minutes, we see that the true interval is somewhere between 1m 38s and 15m 06s, spanning our estimated interval. Even though we are at the shorter end of that range (especially if you focus on the high precision estimate), given we're estimating everything here, that's still a pretty impressive outcome. In in the end, being inside the range does not require further justification beyond that our estimations and Spooner's statement do not conflict. It may be hard to accept that two values can be different and yet still be considered acceptably similar, but most people are not used to dealing with measurement variability and only look at the exact values, but that is how you get stuck like a deer in the headlights. Measurement variability, while in one sense is a very simple concept, but on the other hand I find it is one of the hardest things to help get my student's heads around.

                      So, while Spooner's estimate of the clock time itself seems to be off, his estimate of the interval between his arrival and PC Lamb's arrival is within the ranges we would expect based upon our attempts at recreation, and that latter finding further points to his main error is indeed with regards to the time "o'clock". If he had spent a bunch of the night at the pub, perhaps there's an explanation for that?

                      - Jeff

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                        Swanson. The clue is that he said about 1.00. That means that he was estimating.
                        Swanson? So, Goldstein was investigated but they forgot to ask him what time he was on Berner St?

                        The clue to what - that we can cling to the faint hope of Mortimer locking up by 12:45?

                        Point me to a direct quote from Goldstein. Or to a quote that said ‘Goldstein said…’
                        The relevant section of Swanson's report begins; From enquiries made it was found that at:-
                        The timeline in Swanson's report is owing to the times in the respective witness statements. It's revealing that you deny this.
                        Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          A number of scenarios:
                          Stride/Parcelman move on after Smith and stand around the corner where Brown later sees them.
                          This would mean the pair conversed in two locations, which doesn't sound like Stride talking to a potential client who is so awful that she's turns him away. So, what would be the reason for her leaving this man's company, only to go and stand in the gateway, where he could still have seen her?

                          Stride/Parcelman walk on along Fairclough Street, another couple arrive seen by Brown, they move on, Stride returns and goes to the gateway.
                          They move on? We know who the other potential couple was, and they did not move on.

                          Stride/Parcelman move on after Smith. They later separate further along Berner Street. The other couple arrive seen by Brown. They move on as Strde returns. They don’t see her because they have their backs to her but she might have seen them and Brown.
                          So, once again, we have witnesses who must be moved out of the way, to support other claims.

                          The woman with Parcelman wasn’t Stride. They just move on and leave the scene.
                          She just happened to look like Stride, wear a flower like Stride, be standing on Berner St at that particular time, and leave just before Stride arrives to commence her standing in the gateway vigil.

                          I think that we can make too much of the idea that people can ‘just miss’ seeing each other. It happens all the time but when we’re looking at these ‘familiar’ events it can seem as if we’re conveniently moving people around like chess pieces but we’re not. We’re just stating the possibilities.
                          I think "conveniently moving people around like chess pieces", is an apt description.
                          Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                            Surely you can see that your point doesn’t stand up? Your saying that if she was in the same part of the house when she heard the footsteps that she was when the incident occurred then she would have heard the incident. That’s obvious but the point is that we don’t know. So the possibility exists that she wasn’t.
                            No, that is not what I said, which was...

                            Had she been in different parts of her place when she heard the footsteps, as compared to her location when she heard the commotion, the argument that she must have been somewhere other than her own room when this Schwartz incident supposedly occurs, falls flat.
                            The commotion is not the incident.

                            My question to you would be - why are you so resistant to something as everyday as someone hearing one thing but not another (given that we don’t know where she was, inside her house, at either time) and yet your totally confident that a man lied and placed himself at the scene of a murder, clearly going to be associated with the recent series, with non-existence witnesses who couldn’t back up that he wasn’t involved? Which one of these two is the less likely? It can’t be close.
                            ​You're wanting to substitute the particulars we have with "something as everyday as someone hearing one thing but not another". Why do prefer generics to specifics?

                            I'm pretty sure non-existent witnesses could neither backup nor contradict his story, which is convenient.

                            As for your personal intuitions as to what the man going by the name of Israel Schwartz would or would not have done, I'm not interested.

                            There’s no misrepresentation. You constantly baulk at this. You’ve stated in the past your reluctance to accept a margin for error.
                            ​If that is so, then you should be able to quote me displaying that reluctance. Do I display that reluctance in #282?

                            But again, I’m only suggesting errors, you’re suggesting dishonesty; that Diemschitz must have lied. So did Lamb lie when he said that he arrived at the yard 10 minutes before Dr. Blackwell?
                            What rot. I clearly state in #282 that Smith and Diemschitz cannot both be at the top of Berner St at 1am. That is hardly controversial. I then state that there are essentially four ways of dealing with the anomaly, namely:

                            - Assume Smith was right and Diemschitz was wrong
                            - Assume that Diemschitz was right, and Smith was wrong
                            - Split the difference
                            - Ignore the difference​


                            What mental gymnastics did you perform to get 'lied' out of 'wrong'? The irony of your ridiculous claim that I'm suggesting that Diemschitz lied about the time, is that I don't even state in that post which of the first 3 options I favour. By your 'logic', I could also be suggesting that Smith lied. Why not accuse me of that too?
                            Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by FrankO View Post

                              And, what has always struck me as odd, is why didn’t PC Smith see or hear anything? It’s clear that he must have been covering that part of his beat that was directly west of Berner Street when Diemshutz arrived in the yard. So, he would have either been in Backchurch Lane between Fairclough Street and Commercial Road or on Commercial Road between Backchurch Lane and Gower Street when the running & screaming began.
                              Frank, I've already explained this - the men screamed, but not very loudly

                              If in Backchurch Lane, he was only a maximum of 95 m/310 ft from Berner Street (at the south end), not even 70 m/230 ft halfway and less than 60 m/195 ft at the top of that street. If he had just turned the corner of Backchurch and Fairclough, then why didn’t he hear Kozebrodski & Diemshutz running and screaming? If he was further up Backchurch, why didn’t he hear Eagle screaming? Why didn’t he hear him through Sander Street? And why didn’t he hear him either when he’d reached Commercial Road if he was then still in Backchurch?

                              Why wouldn’t he have heard anything if he’d already reached Commercial Road when Eagle reached it from Berner Street? On that end of the street, Backchurch is only 60 m/195 ft away from Berner. Why didn’t hear or see anything of Eagle, Kozebrodski, Lamb & PC 426 H between where Lamb was approached and the corner of Berner Street?
                              Would there have been any industrial noise in the area?

                              The only place to make sense where he could have been when Eagle arrived on Commercial Road would have been on the last 25 m or 82 feet before reaching Gower Street, beyond a slight bend in Commercial Road. That would have been some 145 m or 475 ft from the eastern top corner of Berner. But that would be quite a small window for him to 'oblivious' to the running & screaming furhter east along Commercial Road. The only other thing I can come up with is that he was somewhere inside, having a cup of tea, perhaps.

                              Cheers,
                              Frank
                              Look Herlock, Frank is suggesting dishonesty; that Smith must have lied!
                              Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

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                              • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                                Thanks Andrew.

                                Yes, it's 420 feet or 127 meters and from the top of Berner Street to Dutfield's Yard was 360 feet or 110 meters.


                                Seeing that 3 mph - if I'm not mistaken - was supposed to be the average speed of a bobby walking his beat, this looks good, Andrew.


                                That would correspond well enough with what I'd come up with: 110 m in 82 seconds at an avarage speed of 1.34 m/s or 3 mph. As for the rest: agreed all around!

                                Cheers,
                                Frank
                                Thanks Frank!
                                Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

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