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Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

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  • Fixed Points.

    For discussion of general police procedures, officials and police matters that do not have a specific forum.


    Hi Dave,

    Apologies if I misunderstood your point.

    This was the brief thread on the Dickens book. If you've got a branch of The Works anywhere near you it might be worth having a look to see if they still carry copies.

    It was P.c. Roadnight who posted about fixed point officers being allowed to leave their posts in certain circumstances. I'm not sure what his source was though for the statement made. It makes sense that an officer leaving a fixed point would need a good reason for doing so, rather more so than does an expectation that he would never move under any circumstances, I'm hoping Monty (hint) might have a copy of the written police orders covering this.
    I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

    Comment


    • Hello again Colin

      Thanks ever so much for that thread...very interesting indeed and I don't remember seeing it before (though I ought - it's recent enough!). Yes it'd be great if Monty or someone could expand on this...I note Helston/Holland was mentioned on that thread too.

      I've got the Dicken's book already on my "to buy" list, which always seems to grow longer!

      Every good wish

      Dave

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
        Hi cd
        Lol. Sorry for the sarcasm.
        My history professor said the same exact thing to me at UM in response to my thesis that Sparta obviously started the Pellaponesian war. I apologize and will try to tone it done. Your ideas have obvious merit.

        BTW. Your an east coast dude right?
        No problem. I have been guilty myself on occasion.

        Yes, Washington, D.C.

        c.d.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
          Hi Lynn

          Do you think it`s an American / British thing with the cachous?
          Is Abby, British, I think he is. It would support my transatlantic cachous theory.
          CD and yourself have real problems with the cachous and I`m wondering if they`re quite a different thing altogether in the States ;-)



          Blimey Lynn. It was only a week or so ago that we discussed this. She had mud on her right side too !!!
          Hi Jon,

          I don't think that we have cachous here in the States except maybe in some old time candy store. We do have Tic-Tacs, a little white breath freshener which I think comes pretty close and also Altoids which would seem to be their big brother. I don't think the problem is with the cachous themselves but the fact that they were only wrapped in tissue paper as opposed to being in a tin of some sorts.

          c.d.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
            No problem. I have been guilty myself on occasion.

            Yes, Washington, D.C.

            c.d.
            Where are the cicadas? LOL

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
              From Swanson's report:



              I don't see how that could be described as "unintentional".
              Hi Bridewell,

              Swanson is quoting Schwartz. Schwartz couldn't understand what was being said between the B.S. man and Liz and on top of that we have the whole translation business. But here are a few possibilities:

              Maybe Liz was being the aggressor and it was a get away from me push from the B.S. man;

              The B.S. man pulled one way and Liz pulled the other. If he suddenly let go, she might have lost her balance;

              Their feet became entangled causing Liz to fall;

              He did push her but possibly being drunk pushed harder than he meant to.

              I started a thread a while ago entitled "a Modern Day BS man/Liz encounter in which I recounted a couple's argument that I witnessed. The woman was the one pulling the man who wanted to leave (it was a romantic break up). He kept trying to extricate himself and finally pushed her away. She didn't fall but I could see how that could easily have happened. They were both close enough to me that I could hear them and were speaking English. Had that not been the case, I could have easily interpreted it as the man pushing the woman. Just food for thought.

              c.d.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                Where are the cicadas? LOL
                You got me. I have seen maybe two. It was supposed to be a plague of biblical proportions. Go figure.

                c.d.

                Comment


                • sen-sen

                  Hello CD.

                  Try sen-sens (imps). Same disgusting flavour.

                  Cheers.
                  LC

                  Comment


                  • Master the possibilities.

                    Hello (again) CD.

                    "here are a few possibilities"

                    Well, I can think of one more, but you already know what that is.

                    Cheers.
                    LC

                    Comment


                    • Not an assault? **** off!

                      Well some upper-class dickhead of the year at the Home Office regarded it as a "pulling around", but Sir Charles Warren said it was an "assaulting"...guess who I believe...

                      All the best

                      Dave

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
                        Hello CD.

                        Try sen-sens (imps). Same disgusting flavour.

                        Cheers.
                        LC
                        Hi Lynn,

                        I have had the misfortune of tasting sen-sens. Definitely nasty.

                        c.d.

                        Comment


                        • licorice

                          Hello CD. Thanks.

                          Yes, it's licorice, I think--the one flavour I cannot abide.

                          Cheers.
                          LC

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
                            Hello CD. Thanks.

                            Yes, it's licorice, I think--the one flavour I cannot abide.

                            Cheers.
                            LC
                            Plus, as I recall, they look like little pieces of metal.

                            c.d

                            Comment


                            • [QUOTE=lynn cates;269410]
                              Hello Lynn. Thank you for your testing questions.

                              Don't think gate crashing was necessary. The club encouraged attendance.

                              The requirements of joining the club is to be a vouched for socialist, to just pop in for the entertainment and miss out on the propaganda would not be so friendly. To a large extent the members remaining after the discussion may well have known each like a family. Another point is that Elisabeth may have been able to speak some Yiddish and was confident enough to try to talk herself into the club.

                              1. What was he doing there? Awaiting a victim?
                              Just part of the security while Arbeter Fraint was being worked on in the back room. Printing leaflets inciting the assassination of royalty is frowned upon that got Johan Most a 2 year jail sentence. (A one- time editor of such literature) The club was a front to conceal these activities.

                              2. Why did Eygle not see him? 3. Why did Lave not see him?
                              Perhaps they did, he was no stranger and his presence was considered normal. Lave, was probably the phonetic name for Jaffa who was editing A.F. with Kranz (Rombo) in the editorial office. Came from Paris 1887.

                              4. When Liz's companion fled, why did she not grasp the danger and flee as well?
                              She was not in danger, her companion was, and she wanted release from him anyway. Seeing a man in the alley she may have assigned him to be a club member and helpful. Also she may still have been on the cobblestones. All this is dynamic action.

                              Second Section
                              1. He must have walked next the building with Liz to his left. 2. Her feet would need to be pointed in the opposite direction.

                              He was holding the knife in the right hand and he was to her left with his arm extended crossing the left part of his chest. As Blackwell described, he pulled her to the left and continued a forward step while reaching over her right shoulder drawing the knife across her throat as he pulled her down. This would have spun Liz slightly to face the wall and positioned her feet towards the wall. Words are somewhat inadequate to describe the dynamic dance that occurred and since we weren't there, is purely speculative.
                              An addendum to this which could have had some bearing on the position of her feet (and body). It is usual that in the process of dying from anoxic conditions, e.g. blood loss or heart block, that the large muscles of the body, particularly the legs convulse for some 20 seconds or so. A visit to an abattoir would verify the conditions under which this occurs. Iíve seen these convulsions often enough but had no reason to explore what conditions brought it on nor frequency .
                              One option worth considering is that Elisabeth did exhibit convulsions which displaced her legs and dress. She was then rearranged together with the placing of grapes in her hand. In other words there was some staging of the body. If those grapes had not been in her hand, I would not have considered that she could have been adjusted.
                              As in all things Ripper, there is no such thing as certainty, only probability and face validity.
                              Cheers, D.G.

                              Comment


                              • Hello Colin (Bridewell), Dave (Cogidubnus).

                                Considering you both show an interest in the issue of Fixed Point Duty, there is another example that really throws the proverbial spanner in the works.

                                It is the account of PC Joseph Drage.

                                In this testimony we learn that PC Drage was on Fixed Point Duty at about 12:30 in Whitechapel Road opposite Great Garden St.
                                About 20 yds away a citizen picked up a knife on a doorstep. PC Drage left his post to examine what had been found. The witness accompanied Drage to the police station and Drage stated that he had just passed that doorway only 15 minutes before and he did not see the knife.

                                - This officer was on Fixed Point Duty.
                                - The officer claimed to have been walking past the doorway while on duty.
                                - He claimed to have stood outside this particular door only an hour previous.
                                - He left his post to go to the police station.
                                (Consult the dailies of 4th October, 1888 - Times, Morning Advertiser, Daily News, Daily Telegraph)

                                Either, the rules concerning an officer on Fixed Point Duty are not so strictly observed, or we lack a complete understanding of what is expected of a Fixed Point Duty officer.

                                Interesting...
                                Regards, Jon S.

                                Comment

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