6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[Michael W Richards]

I hear you regarding the alledged relationship Lynn, however, if a link was discovered between the 2 men Israels potential allegiance play would be that much more believable.

As for the discussion about club members as the killer, I dont recall suggesting it, and as David says, why would a member kill on their own property? Ive suspicions that they hired security that night because of a pre-existing threat of violence due to the originally scheduled speaker that night...who was cancelled due to that threat chatter. I would imagine that when 200 people were in attendance there were a few security folks, some of which may have wound down after the meeting broke up with a smoke or 2 in the passageway. Maybe a drink or 2 as well. Maybe that drink or 2 affected the interaction he may have had with Liz.

All that it might have taken was some verbal abuse by Liz as the man either sought to question her, eject her from the passageway, or even perhaps get her to go back into the yard with him.

Attendee or member though, the threat to the club was very real if either of those were found to be guilty of the crime.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Spooner was nowhere near Berner Street during the Schwartz incident

As has been discussed on another thread by DRoy and moi, forget about precise time references by individual witnesses, they don't make any sense at all. We're taking very brief time spans, for each individual incident. There's room for manovure for all involved to be talling the truth. All execept Mr's M of course !

Regards

Observer

I wasnt referring to Berner Street Observer, I was referring to Fairclough...where Israel says he ran after passing the club, and where Brown saw the couple, at Berner and Fairclough.

I disagree about your statement regarding the timings, they only conflict and make no sense if you accept all the statements as accurate and true. I dont. If you accept certain statements based on a belief that they had no reason to lie there is a storyline that can be followed, and one that makes sense.

Its just not the most widely accepted story.

Cheers

[The Good Michael]

The deed or the conjecture?

Don't be coy.

Mike

[lynn cates]

marriage of convenience

Hello David. Thanks.

Pity she weren't alive today. She could marry Bill Gates.

I suppose, then, she'd be Pearly Gates? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

ambiguous

Hello Michael. Thanks.

The deed or the conjecture?

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Stay with us, Lynn

In a fit of a pique ?
That's Pearly Poll.

[The Good Michael]

Hello David, Michael. In the proposed scenario, the discussion involves not a member of the club, but an attendee.

Further, it has been conjectured that it happened in a fit of pique, not by design.

Who?

Cheers,

Mike

[lynn cates]

qualification

Hello David, Michael. In the proposed scenario, the discussion involves not a member of the club, but an attendee.

Further, it has been conjectured that it happened in a fit of pique, not by design.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Excuse me, but why is it news that Schwartz possibly had connections to Wess? We've been talking about this for years...at least 5 or 6, that Schwartz was probably a member of the Club. I remember even the idea that he had been living next door and was in the process of moving when the Stride Ripper murder happened.

What I'm saying is that it would have been normal for young Jewish men from eastern Europe who were all recent immigrants, to have belonged to the same organizations...if only for a sense of security. Nothing nefarious there, and no connection to Stride's death...unless one is suggesting a member killed her.

Mike

[DVV]

To Obs and Jon : many thanks for your kind posts my friends.

As for Schwartz covering a club member (which I don't believe for a second), I must add : why would a club member kill a woman near to the club ? That would be stupid.
And had it happened, why would the other members protect him ?
It makes no sense at all.

Remember that anarchists did have a moral code. Killing a poor woman like Liz would have been such a shame according to this code.

[Observer]

The best to you as well David.

Then heres another problem....how come Spooner, or Brown, or the young couple Brown sees, dont see Israel run into the street they are on at the time... at 12:46...by your one minute speculation? Or Pipeman.

Its not only Fanny who "missed" seeing Israels storyline unfold.

Cheers my friend

Spooner was nowhere near Berner Street during the Schwartz incident

As has been discussed on another thread by DRoy and moi, forget about precise time references by individual witnesses, they don't make any sense at all. We're taking very brief time spans, for each individual incident. There's room for manovure for all involved to be talling the truth. All execept Mr's M of course !

Regards

Observer

[lynn cates]

still looking

Hello Mike.

"uncovered a link between Schwartz and Wess"

Observation might be premature. I believe this is ongoing.

Of course, even if a link is found, he might still be telling the truth for all that.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Heres a thought on a possibility for Schwartz....if he didnt understand English, then how would he know what the translator actually said to the investigators?

Lets say Israel was at the meeting, ....and when leaving via the kitchen door at around 12:45....since the front door was apparently locked at 12:40...he sees the altercation he describes happen, only IN the passageway. Where Liz is actually killed. When he tells the translator this.....(who is very likely Wolff Wess of the club and the editor of the Arbeter Fraint)....the translator simply embellishes the story in English and changes the location by a few yards.

Why? Because the translator stands to lose his business if anyone at the club is suspected. Whats a few yards going to matter to a dead woman.....when its everything to the club members.

If this premise were true....you would be able to place Liz at her murder site just before the cut time, you wouldnt have an altercation that ends in the street and then re-starts in the passageway, you could assume that Israel was used by the club for self protection even without his consent possibly, and you would have an opportunity created that I doubt any senior staff at 40 Berner Street would have been able to resist. Its also why Fanny doesnt hear or see it.

Cheers all

[Wickerman]

Hi Obs, that's indeed very likely imo.
As for Schwartz protecting someone, that's a cranky idea to me.
If I need a witness to save my neck, I would choose one that can speak English properly (which btw isn't my case, aaarff, as everybody knows on boards).

All the best

But you still manage to make more sense than many who have mastered the language.

[Observer]

Observer,

I once again have to steal from Lynn Cates...yes it is possible but so is alien abduction. Something of that sort. Something to do with aliens.

Just kidding

Yes it is possible. Just as possible as Schwartz protecting someone. Just as possible as Schwartz being misinterpreted. Just as possible as his interpreter was misinterpreted. Just as possible as the one recording the statement misinterpreted. And like the fantastic Faberge commercials with Heather Locklear back in the day..."and so on and so on..."

Cheers
DRoy

I'd agree, but unfortunately it's something we'll never get to the bottom of

Regards

Observer