How Would Jack the Ripper Have Reacted?

[Tecs]

Since JFK was shot in the back of the neck -- right?

Don't open that can of worms!!!

There's enough debate on this subject, let alone JFK111

regards,

[Tecs]

Hi, Tecs,
Thanks for the examples. Very interesting.

Since JFK was shot in the back of the neck -- right? -- could the reaction be because nerves were involved that might produce the involuntary muscle action?

I knew that PC Thompson had been stabbed, but had never heard about his grasp on his killer's collar.

I wonder how much people have control in the final moments of life. Wondering if perhaps Thompson was determined to hang on to his killer, to not let him get away. I suspect most people might try to do that, but especially an officer of the law -- on the other hand, it might be his body's reaction to the trauma and nothing more.

Again, very interesting.

I've gone back and reread Dr. Phillips inquest testimony, and he reported "Roughly estimating it, I should say there was an unusual flow of blood, considering the stature and the nourishment of the body."

I don't know how that ties to anything. Any thoughts?

curious

This might be one of those occasions when what is written in somebody's book is different slightly from what actually happened!

When I wrote before I was talking off the top of my head, but am still convinced that in one of the respectable books on the case it was stated that thompson held on to his Killer's collar so tightly that his hands had to be prized off after death. I've just had a quick look at the newspapers on this site and it appears that that is what almost happened. he certainly had a tight hold, of the coat it appears and it does look as if his hands did need to be prized off by colleagues, but thompson appears to have still been just alive at that point.

I'll check my books when I get home later, there may be an answer there somewhere!

regards,

[curious]

There is a nerve in the neck, the Vagus nerve, that affects the heart. For anyone who has ever gotten a head rush (or even fainted) from standing up too quickly, that is vasovagal syncope, an interaction between circulatory changes and the Vagus nerve. The "Vulcan Neck Pinch" also operates on this principle.

In rare instances (though it seems to happen not infrequently in baseball) trauma to the neck causes the heart to stop. Maybe 1 in 1000. It's happened with martial artists, baseball players, wrestlers, during surgery... it happens.

Offhand I can't remember the nature of Liz Stride's neck cut, but I think he probably severed the Vagus nerve, or at least nicked it, and stopped her heart. It is even possible that jerking on her neck kerchief stimulated the Vagus nerve, and THAT stopped her heart. It's a lot more likely from the throat cut, but if baseball players can drop dead from taking a ball to the neck, Stride could have died from a sharp jerk on her scarf.

There's a name for this phenomenon, I discussed it in another thread a long time ago. I can't remember it offhand.

a HA! reflex vagal inhibition. That's what it's called.

Thanks, Errata,
Now that you mention it, I do recall that discussion.

So, I looked it up and apparently the Vagus nerve is actually in the carotid sheath between the internal carotid artery and the internal jugular vein, so it is entirely possible that nerve was affected.

Now, just another thought --- if the heart stopped, would she have continued to bleed out?

Dr. Phillips went on to remark that there was an unusual flow of blood considering the stature and nourishment of the body . . .

Interesting information.

Thanks, Errata.

curious

[curious]

Thanks Curious,

This line is very interesting and worth pursuing.

Two examples that spring to mind,

1. Didn't J.F.K.'s body go into some strange sort of spasm when he was shot? People have argued about whether his lifting his arms to his neck was a natural reaction to being shot in the throat or a spasmic reaction that causes the arms to raise in that way.

2. P.C. Thompson who discovered Frances Coles's body was stabbed to death years later. According to the reports, he held on to his attacker's collar so strongly that his fingers had to be prized off post mortem. Was there any comment about the stiffness of the rest of his body? Even if there was, it suggests that in certain modes of death, a hand can be very tightly clenched whilst the rest of the body is not, assuming that Thompson did not go into some kind of immediate rigor mortis.

regards,

Hi, Tecs,
Thanks for the examples. Very interesting.

Since JFK was shot in the back of the neck -- right? -- could the reaction be because nerves were involved that might produce the involuntary muscle action?

I knew that PC Thompson had been stabbed, but had never heard about his grasp on his killer's collar.

I wonder how much people have control in the final moments of life. Wondering if perhaps Thompson was determined to hang on to his killer, to not let him get away. I suspect most people might try to do that, but especially an officer of the law -- on the other hand, it might be his body's reaction to the trauma and nothing more.

Again, very interesting.

I've gone back and reread Dr. Phillips inquest testimony, and he reported "Roughly estimating it, I should say there was an unusual flow of blood, considering the stature and the nourishment of the body."

I don't know how that ties to anything. Any thoughts?

curious

[Errata]

There is a nerve in the neck, the Vagus nerve, that affects the heart. For anyone who has ever gotten a head rush (or even fainted) from standing up too quickly, that is vasovagal syncope, an interaction between circulatory changes and the Vagus nerve. The "Vulcan Neck Pinch" also operates on this principle.

In rare instances (though it seems to happen not infrequently in baseball) trauma to the neck causes the heart to stop. Maybe 1 in 1000. It's happened with martial artists, baseball players, wrestlers, during surgery... it happens.

Offhand I can't remember the nature of Liz Stride's neck cut, but I think he probably severed the Vagus nerve, or at least nicked it, and stopped her heart. It is even possible that jerking on her neck kerchief stimulated the Vagus nerve, and THAT stopped her heart. It's a lot more likely from the throat cut, but if baseball players can drop dead from taking a ball to the neck, Stride could have died from a sharp jerk on her scarf.

There's a name for this phenomenon, I discussed it in another thread a long time ago. I can't remember it offhand.

a HA! reflex vagal inhibition. That's what it's called.

[curious]

Hello (again) Velma.

"Perhaps he just grabbed and got the scarf and she attempted to pull away.

But then, we have the grasp on the cachous that fainting won't explain . . ."

Exactly. Could he have placed them in her hand? Of course, but wasn't he in a hurry, being interrupted?

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
Sorry for the delay, had to stop and feed the birdies.

The being interrupted is just someone's guess as to what was going on that night.

And the killer placing them in her hand would indicate -- to me -- a non-Jack kill.

But we don't really have any explanation for the cachous.

We know that someone? was it Johnston? admitted that he had spilled them, then picked most of them up. Isn't that right.?Going from my memory is dangerous here.

Maybe someone not on record is actually responsible for the cachous.

Any ideas, Lynn?

You're good with questions, but don't often put your ideas forward.

Velma

[Tecs]

Hi, Tecs,
I personally think the fact that Jack cut his victims throats away from him in order to avoid getting bloody himself tells us quite a bit about him, and to me is one of the main reasons I suspect "Jack" as Liz's killer. I'm still undecided about that.

That and the quick work in a crowded location are, to me, indications of Jack.

The cachous tells us something unusual (most likely physical) happened with Liz, and 124 years later we still don't know what it was.

Cadaveric Spasm has been suggested, but I believe the entire body goes into "instant rigor"

Since the doctors were able to move her around just minutes later, Cadaveric Spasm doesn't seem to me to be likely.

Thanks Curious,

This line is very interesting and worth pursuing.

Two examples that spring to mind,

1. Didn't J.F.K.'s body go into some strange sort of spasm when he was shot? People have argued about whether his lifting his arms to his neck was a natural reaction to being shot in the throat or a spasmic reaction that causes the arms to raise in that way.

2. P.C. Thompson who discovered Frances Coles's body was stabbed to death years later. According to the reports, he held on to his attacker's collar so strongly that his fingers had to be prized off post mortem. Was there any comment about the stiffness of the rest of his body? Even if there was, it suggests that in certain modes of death, a hand can be very tightly clenched whilst the rest of the body is not, assuming that Thompson did not go into some kind of immediate rigor mortis.

regards,

[Tecs]

But a limp Liz cannot hold the cachous.

If that's not the name of an indie bands psychedelic 3rd album, it should be...


regards,

[lynn cates]

signs

Hello Velma. An infarction would show tissue death in the area near the infarct.

A thrombosis, however, would reveal a clot.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Velma. Thanks.

"Would the doctors at the time have known what a heart attack looked like?"

Certainly.

Cheers.
LC

I was just thinking that with all our magic machines today, doctors can actually look into living people and could not have back in 1888.

What would a heart attack have looked like?

Or I should probably go look it up . . . .

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello (again) Velma.

"Perhaps he just grabbed and got the scarf and she attempted to pull away.

But then, we have the grasp on the cachous that fainting won't explain . . ."

Exactly. Could he have placed them in her hand? Of course, but wasn't he in a hurry, being interrupted?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Adding to my post above, if Jack needed to finish Liz off quickly it would have been quicker to stab her two or three times.

But that would run the risk of being covered in blood.

The way Jack cut his victims throats, away from him so that no blood sprayed on to him suggests either someone with knowledge of some sort or someone cool and calm enough to know what to do in the circumstances.

Does that tell us anything more about him?

Assuming the above post was how it happened!

regards,

Hi, Tecs,
I personally think the fact that Jack cut his victims throats away from him in order to avoid getting bloody himself tells us quite a bit about him, and to me is one of the main reasons I suspect "Jack" as Liz's killer. I'm still undecided about that.

That and the quick work in a crowded location are, to me, indications of Jack.

The cachous tells us something unusual (most likely physical) happened with Liz, and 124 years later we still don't know what it was.

Cadaveric Spasm has been suggested, but I believe the entire body goes into "instant rigor"

Since the doctors were able to move her around just minutes later, Cadaveric Spasm doesn't seem to me to be likely.

[lynn cates]

limp

Hello Tecs.

"That would all fit wouldn't it?"

Nearly. But a limp Liz cannot hold the cachous.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello Velma. Thanks.

"Would the doctors at the time have known what a heart attack looked like?"

Certainly.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Jack starts to strangle.

Liz passes out.

She goes limp and begins to fall to the floor (unlike the other victims who would have unwittingly helped Jack by remaining standing to fight back.)

Jack lays her down but hears Diemschutz approaching.

Panicking as he realises that if Liz comes round he is surely identified he cuts her throat as quickly and hastily as possible which explains the slightly different cut from the other victims.

Jack makes his escape quickly, off to find another victim.


That would all fit wouldn't it?

Regards,

Ah, interesting. You see him continuing so she can't identify him. But it was extremely dark, could she have? Of course, why would he take a chance?

If he had grabbed her scarf from behind . . . well, I've wondered how he could have intentionally when it was so dark. Perhaps he just grabbed and got the scarf and she attempted to pull away.

But then, we have the grasp on the cachous that fainting won't explain . .
And I have a problem with the timing of Diemschutz's arrival. I'm not sure he was in time to have interrupted the murderer. But that was a busy yard with lots of opportunity for interruption.

Thanks, Tecs, this is why it's been a mystery for 124 years.

I have also wondered if the murderer tucked the cachous into her hand -- I'm not sure it makes any sense, but I have wondered if it was not a JtR job, but someone who cared for her and the little gift of cachous was perhaps an act of remorse.

see, pure imagination.

Just read a great quote: Logic takes a person from A to B. Imagination can take a person anywhere . . .

now if we could figure out why Stride's lungs were unusually pale, would we be closer to understanding?