Diemschutz arrival

[sleekviper]

Thanks Tom! Thought that there was a bit of a problem.

[Ginger]

Hello Jon. It seems that there was a dissertation (maybe a thread) where the width was discussed. iT was based on the ruts.

Hi Lynn. They're probably basing that on Roman track ruts. The 'classic' wheel width for a horse or pony cart is 56.5 inches, from the inside of one wheel to the inside of the other. That size was used because that was the standard gauge used in the Roman Empire, and up until the industrial revolution Roman roads were still the best existing throughout much of Europe for long distance travel. By Victorian times that wasn't true any longer, and to some degree hadn't been true since the fall of the Empire for carts expected to stay in town. By 1888, and especially in cities, there was no real 'standard width' in use anymore.

[Ginger]

Question...what was the standard width of a horse drawn cart like the kind Louis would have been using? He said he was stopping to offload some goods that didnt sell at the market.

It depends on what was meant by 'pony cart'. If it was a two wheeled cart (a chaise or dog-cart), with a small pony, those can sometimes be quite narrow, only 40 inches or so, which would just fit through a single door. Since he was selling jewelry, I'd imagine his stock probably fit in a smallish case, so that might have been what he had. Google on 'pony cart track width', and you can get some idea of the various sizes in use for different sizes of pony.

[lynn cates]

width

Hello Jon. It seems that there was a dissertation (maybe a thread) where the width was discussed. iT was based on the ruts.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Fanny

Hello Tom. Personally, I'm not too keen on Mortimer's narration. It's easy to think that intermittent attention is more than it in fact is.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

kids

Hello (again) Mike. Personally, I would not put much weight on Kozebrodske's tale. He gets Liz's body placement hopelessly wrong. Of course, he is but a wee lad.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

both

Hello Mike. I think Wess indicated that the gates (plural) were open.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Does Mortimer give two versions???

I seriously doubt she did, but the press gave two versions. One was a bit muddled and had her at her door for a half an hour, the other was more detailed and had her at her door for 10 minutes. However, the door had been opened quite a while prior to that, possibly 20 minutes, so that's likely where the half hour came from. If memory serves, she heard someone walk by prior to her going to the door. This was either Schwartz or PC Lamb (who may have been off in his timing).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Thanks for any help, I havent been able to find info on the dimensions.

Michael, carts came in all sizes, we don't know what type he used.

We can all guess, I would guess this type, but, who knows?



Four to five feet wide (hub to hub), maybe?

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi mike

So Deimshutx was part of the intrigue ?

And I think you're being far too generous regarding the time allotted between the discovery of the body and the time at which Deimshutz and others set out to seek help. I'd half your 10 minute suggestion, and if you are familiar with the location and environs of the International Working Men's Educatonal Club, I think you'll agree it was perfectly feasible for officers to have been on the scene at the time they stated at inquest should Deimshutz and the others had left the yard to seek help at 1:05 a.m.

As for Kozebrodski, I believe he merely got his timings wrong, to be fair he wasn't the only one guilty of this act.

Regards

Observer

Hi Observer,

Louis and Morris worked for the club, Morris spoke that night and Louis was the Club Steward. My suggestion that they might lie to protect the club is founded on that principle...that only club management would be making these kinds of decisions.

As for Isaac, he was sure he arrived back at the club at 12:30 and he thought no more than 10 minutes had passed before he got word....and this was his recollection of events within 1 hour of their transpiring. I dont think he flubbed it. It was too recent an event.

As for Louis's timing....he arrives, the horse shies, he dismounts, lights a match, runs inside to see to Mrs Diemshitz. Club members are told of the find and come down to see the woman. This is based on accounts from the members present. Then they send for help. I dont see that being 5 minutes, IF Louis arrived immediately at 1am, which by the sounds of his story, he didnt. He would have been a minute or 2 after the hour.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

Ok....I have a question I would appreciate help with.

Question...what was the standard width of a horse drawn cart like the kind Louis would have been using? He said he was stopping to offload some goods that didnt sell at the market.

You see, I dont believe that having only 1 gate open, (a little over 4 feet wide), would suffice for his being able to enter the passageway and then the yard with his pony and cart, and as we know, from the street only the right hand gate was ajar and not completely...Liz would have been partially obscured by it to anyone passing by. I surmise he must have got down and opened the other half of the gates before he could enter that space....and have his pony "shie" left.

Thanks for any help, I havent been able to find info on the dimensions.

[sleekviper]

Wait a second, on the very same night evidence is erased after being written down for what reason? So if Warren has a concern over a group of individuals, why would that group also not have a concern over their welfare in this not too ordinary period in time? Lynn may have a point, the actions of Warren sure seem to make it highly feasible.

[lynn cates]

Tell you what let's do . . .

Hello CD. I think that is what happened. But as the RESULT of a bit of deliberation.

No big deal, really.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Search me?

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

"Well, there was a murder on their property."

Indeed.

"Did the police suspect the club or its members of murder?"

Before or after their painstaking search?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

delay

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"What delay?"

From 12.45 until about 12.55.

Cheers.
LC