Diemschutz arrival

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all,

I was just scanning the last page of the thread and saw some discussion about the wheel ruts in Dutfield's yard. There were no wheel ruts. That press report (repeated in a lot of books, hence the hold it's taken) is in error.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick. Actually, that's true. The membership of the club was almost exclusively Jewish, although anyone was welcome to ATTEND the club meetings and support the club. Their newsletter was in Yiddish, so that should tell you something. They were aiming almost exclusively to the Jewish immigrant demographic, while their sister club, the Autonomee club, went after German and French immigrants.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

The club was rife with Immigrant Jews and many in that club were considered involved with acts of anarchy.

Is this an hypothesis?
The membership of the club was of mixed ethnicity. It was the political platform the club represented, ie socialism, where the clubs infamy came from. Not specifically immigrant Jews.

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

I think some folks believe that for the club members to fabricate any details about what transpired a wide conspiracy to contain the actual truth must have been in place.

Thats not what Im suggesting, nor do I believe it what Lynn and some others are suggesting. What Im saying is that the International Club did not have a spotless reputation, in fact it had one for "low men" before this killing took place, and it happened a little over 3 weeks after the general public began believing that an Immigrant Jew was killing women like Martha, Polly and Annie. Partially because of the Leather Apron myth.

The club was rife with Immigrant Jews and many in that club were considered involved with acts of anarchy. They fought club and stick with the Police in Dutfields Yard the very next spring, Louis, and I believe Kozebrodsky also, is arrested.

Why Liz would be there is, as was noted, the key to many riddles here. I believe its in the best interest of the search for truth that its accepted that its possible the men responsible for the club might fabricate details so as to ensure the club, and its members, were looking shiny clean. I believe its likely that Israel is the icing on that witness evidence cake. Something as innocuous as many claiming the yard and passageway were empty might be a clue here, its stated that often people gathered in that passageway, after meetings, until after 1 in the morning. This is by neighbor accounts to the police and press. Yet we are told that at 11:40 that night both areas were empty. Why then was the kitchen door ajar I wonder?

Ive never suggested they were concealing something like culpability or actual guilt, but Im not opposed to the idea either.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Lynn,

I just don't see the need for a made up story. If there had been no previous murders or if Liz had not been a prostitute I might be a little more inclined to see the wisdom of such a move. But here you have a prostitute killed with her throat cut like the earlier murders in a dark yard where a prostitute might conduct her business. The club then cooperates with the police as if they had nothing to hide.

Now if they made up a story, how did that come about? Was a poll taken by all members? Was everybody in absolute agreement on this? Were all members informed as to what the story would be? All you need is two members telling different stories or Schwartz getting tripped up in his story to make the police suspicious. Plus Schwartz could find himself in the middle of a murder investigation charged with giving false information to the police. Would he really want to chance that if the Club was completely innocent in all of this?

Again, I think the best course of action for the Club was to cooperate fully with the police rather than having a hastily made plan backfire on them.

c.d.

Hi cd,

Since we have no idea whether Liz was prostituting herself that evening and circumstantial evidence suggesting she wasnt, your premise begins on shaky ground.

The part I made bold in your quote is the main thing I wanted to address, we in fact do have members giving different stories about what time they were alerted to the body and what happened next. Maybe thats your evidence right there....and maybe why Israel was called to the Inquest.

Cheers

[lynn cates]

Q & A

Hello Miakaal. Excellent question. If we could answer that, this murder might just get cleared up.

Cheers.
LC

[miakaal4]

Just hanging around...?

What was Stride doing THERE? Was she waiting for someone in the club, waiting for a potential client given the club was in good use. Or meeting someone, using the club as a rondezvous? Was she just passing getting stopped by BS purely by chance? More questions but only one elusive answer.

[lynn cates]

nyet

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Is there really a benefit to involving the club in this subterfuge?"

On my part? Can't think of any. But I DO have a passion for getting at the bottom of what happened. It is a minor point and, I think, explains the 10-15 minute gap from murder to Dimshits' arrival.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

I would suppose upper echelon only. People like Wess, Eagle and Dimshits.

Hi Lynn.
Is there really a benefit to involving the club in this subterfuge?

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Again, I think the best course of action for the Club was to cooperate fully with the police rather than having a hastily made plan backfire on them.

There is no reason to suggest otherwise.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. It seems that there was a dissertation (maybe a thread) where the width was discussed. iT was based on the ruts.

Cheers.
LC

'We' know the width of the ruts in Dutfield's Yard?

[Wickerman]

Hi Lynn. They're probably basing that on Roman track ruts. The 'classic' wheel width for a horse or pony cart is 56.5 inches, from the inside of one wheel to the inside of the other. That size was used because that was the standard gauge used in the Roman Empire, and up until the industrial revolution Roman roads were still the best existing throughout much of Europe for long distance travel. By Victorian times that wasn't true any longer, and to some degree hadn't been true since the fall of the Empire for carts expected to stay in town. By 1888, and especially in cities, there was no real 'standard width' in use anymore.

Hi Ginger.
So you arrived at the same conclusion, ...we would have to guess.
You just took the scenic route

Best Wishes, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

stories

Hello CD. Thanks.

Concerning my views about Liz qua prostitute, I'm sure stating them yet another time would bore you.

"Now if they made up a story, how did that come about? Was a poll taken by all members?"

I would suppose upper echelon only. People like Wess, Eagle and Dimshits.

"Was everybody in absolute agreement on this?"

No, else they would have done a better job of it.

"Were all members informed as to what the story would be?"

Doubtful.

"All you need is two members telling different stories or Schwartz getting tripped up in his story to make the police suspicious."

Indeed. But many members and many of the public told different stories.

"Plus Schwartz could find himself in the middle of a murder investigation charged with giving false information to the police."

Not so. All he need do is say that there was a translation error.

"Would he really want to chance that if the Club was completely innocent in all of this?"

There was no risk.

"Again, I think the best course of action for the Club was to cooperate fully with the police rather than having a hastily made plan backfire on them."

Agreed. They pretty much did that. Even the Schwartz story was not related within a few days after.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD. I think that is what happened. But as the RESULT of a bit of deliberation.

No big deal, really.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I just don't see the need for a made up story. If there had been no previous murders or if Liz had not been a prostitute I might be a little more inclined to see the wisdom of such a move. But here you have a prostitute killed with her throat cut like the earlier murders in a dark yard where a prostitute might conduct her business. The club then cooperates with the police as if they had nothing to hide.

Now if they made up a story, how did that come about? Was a poll taken by all members? Was everybody in absolute agreement on this? Were all members informed as to what the story would be? All you need is two members telling different stories or Schwartz getting tripped up in his story to make the police suspicious. Plus Schwartz could find himself in the middle of a murder investigation charged with giving false information to the police. Would he really want to chance that if the Club was completely innocent in all of this?

Again, I think the best course of action for the Club was to cooperate fully with the police rather than having a hastily made plan backfire on them.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Thanks for the replies folks.

I do see that Wess indicated that the gate(s) were open Lynn, as did Louis, I had thought there was a report that when the police arrived only the right side was open. Ill look for that reference. Although I did find one reference from Louis that he passed through the "gate", in The Star on Monday the 1st.

Just wondering.

Cheers