Who Died in Dutfield's Yard?

[MrBarnett]

"Dirty lot.....A regular hell"
Tell like it is Chuck!

That's a really interesting find, it certainly appears that Israel and family were well established at the club. Could be plenty of innocuous reasons for him not featuring that night so maybe shouldn't read too much into that. Might be interesting to see if he crops up in Arbeiter Freint around the time?

Maybe he'd ridden off on Andrews hoss?

I think it was one of Booth’s researchers, a Mr Dwane, who made the comment. He says something similar about the residents of Breezer’s Hill. He seems to have been very opinionated. Either that or he was parroting the opinions of his police minder. Some of his comments are quite amusing.

Yes, there may be nothing sinister about Izzy G’s absence from the record, but as the caretaker, living and possibly working on the premises, you’d think he’d crop up somewhere.

[Michael W Richards]

Thats not really an answer though is it, he still doesn't refer to a clock.

If I recall, someone described a passage inside the house that led to the side door, to the right was a room, or the kitchen?

The internal layout was probably the same as any house, likely that is what it was before the club took over. So, the main room may have been the front room of the house, the street door (front door) led to a passage that ran down the left side of the house to the side door.
Wess didn't need to go into the ground floor main room to exit the club, he just came in from the yard via the side door, then down the passage to the front door, and out into the street.
So he probably saw no clock, if there even was one in the main room.

That's correct, it doesn't refer to there not being a clock for him to see. Victorian backdrop aside, it would be hard to argue that in places of gathering a clock wasn't present, and Fanny gave her times, therefore she referenced the time from somewhere, when she went indoors off and on that last half hour. That's what "nearly the whole time" means, in case someone takes umbridge at that. What you Jon and others are suggesting is that the uncorroborated witnesses should be used to establish timelines for that last half hour. And that at least 4 witness accounts that corroborate each other both in time and detail all either didn't have clocks or any timepieces to access. Or at least ones that had what you believe were the accurate times. And that explains a 20 minute variance?

Im not going to pursue the obvious with anyone about this any further here, its doing an injustice to Simon for offering up an interesting thread for debate for one, and its getting rather tedious trying to bludgeon back a crowd with the facts as they are established...not as you might interpret them.

Im pretty well versed in Victorian London ambiance and society Jon, no expert mind you, but over the past decades I have read a great deal about the period in general because of the cases interest, so assuming Im just not informed about who had watches, clocks, sundials or any other kind of timepiece, or that lack of synchronization of any timepieces allows for 20 minute variances in times given by people at the scene is a little insulting. But, as I said...this isn't about what the evidence says about arrival times of carts and horses, its about why we have 2 parties identifying the dead woman as different people despite being someone they know intimately.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

"Dirty lot.....A regular hell"
Tell like it is Chuck!

That's a really interesting find, it certainly appears that Israel and family were well established at the club. Could be plenty of innocuous reasons for him not featuring that night so maybe shouldn't read too much into that. Might be interesting to see if he crops up in Arbeiter Freint around the time?

Maybe he'd ridden off on Andrews hoss?

[MrBarnett]

Think we found Andrew's horse ..... it was hiding on the other side of the gate ..... in 1891 .....

The image is from a Booth survey which took place in June, 1887. The caretaker of the club then lived on the premises. He was a Jewish tailor with 5 children.

A tailor named Goldsmith, who had 5 children, lived at 40, BS between (at least) April, 1888 and April, 1901. By 1891, he, his extended family and lodgers had pretty much taken over the whole building.

Why have we never heard of him before? Or have we?

[DJA]

Think we found Andrew's horse ..... it was hiding on the other side of the gate ..... in 1891 .....

[MrBarnett]

Through the gateway is the sack ‘warehouse’.

The next premises listed is 40, BS, the socialist club, where lives its caretaker and his family.

It’s pretty clear.

[DJA]

[DJA]

It's post 134 when I'm logged in ...... otherwise it is post 224

Read post 224.

[MrBarnett]

[MrBarnett]

Have good look at post 134. It was yours.

It is the house built above ground in the back left hand corner of the yard.

Post 134 on this thread is by Wickerman.

[MrBarnett]

Here’s a question: what’s the use of a club steward who only turns up at the end of the night? A club steward is responsible for the activities of the club members while they are on the club premises.

A caretaker is responsible for the building at all times, and often lives on the premises.

[DJA]

Have good look at post 134. It was yours.

It is the house built above ground in the back left hand corner of the yard.

[MrBarnett]

Because he was working and residing at Hindley's ...... out the back Jack.

No, the sack warehouse is clearly separate from 40 BS. And, of course, sacks wee not made by tailors.

[DJA]

Because he was working and residing at Hindley's ...... out the back Jack.

[MrBarnett]

11 in the 1891 Census,including 2 boarders and 2 in-laws.

Yes, if you include the blind tailor Alec Schwartz occupying three rooms.

Certainly by 1891, Izzy G appears to be the most significant resident at the address. And if he was there in 1888 - and was the caretaker - why haven’t we heard of him?