The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[mpriestnall]

I assume the phrase "BS Man" is not referring to Dr Phillips?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

When I said I am not concerned with time, I phrased that comment badly. I meant that my comments regarding Letchford were concerned only with his non relationship with Mortimer.

Okay fine, but further on you say...

The Schwartz incident would have been all over minutes before Diemshitz's pony shied at around 12:50.

So you suppose the discovery was at ~12:50, and Charles Letchford just happened to mention the street being observed at that time. Not a timespan that encapsulated that time, but just that time. How odd, don't you think? Did Letchford's sister witness the arrival of pony & cart then? Anything else? You go on to say...

If Schwartz arrived a little after 12:45, FM missed seeing him.

Did the sister see him, or was that another near miss? The elusive Israel Schwartz. LOL

I am currently of the opinion that Schwartz was genuine in his statement, but the prevailing criticism is that nobody saw him.

That is a criticism, not the criticism. For example, surely you don't believe he ran away from a man smoking a pipe?

I adopt Smith's times and believe that Mortimer's clock was running 10 minutes slow. As Frank suggested, she had heard Smith pass often enough to recognise his footfall. This would mean that, if Stride crossed into Dutfields after Smith passed, FM would not have seen her. If Schwartz arrived a little after 12:45, FM missed seeing him. FM said that she heard Diemshitz's cart 4 minutes after leaving her door, and that supports Schwartz's times. The Schwartz incident would have been all over minutes before Diemshitz's pony shied at around 12:50.

So you have Stride in the yard at about 12:35. Correct? You also have Diemschitz arriving at 12:50. So here is your first problem...

Joseph Lave: I am a Russian, and have recently arrived from the United States. I am residing temporarily at the club. About twenty minutes before the alarm I went down into the yard to get a breath of fresh air. I walked about for five minutes or more, and went as far as the street. Everything was very quiet at that time, and I noticed nothing wrong.

Twenty minutes before the alarm would be about 12:30. Five minutes or more outside (including on the street), takes us past 12:35. Did he see Stride? No, unless he lied. Yet according to your model, he should not only have seen Stride, but likely the parcel man as well. Now what happens when Eagle's return is added to the mix?

It should be noted that Schwartz was at the tobacconist corner, on foot, so may have had an opportunity to view the time even if the clock was small and badly lit, but he didn't say he saw the clock, and wasn't on the opposite side of the road in a moving cart in traffic at an oblique angle, so such a suggestion will be discounted.

How can we know exactly what Schwartz told Abberline about his knowledge of the time?

Going back to your ~12:50 discovery time, you suppose that the Mortimers' clock was running 10 minutes slow (or should that be fast?). Okay, so how do you account for this timing...

Mrs. Deimschitz, the stewardess of the club, has made the following statement:-"Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened."

Why "just about one o'clock", and not "about ten minutes to one"? Was the club clock reading the same erroneous time as the clock at #36?

I believe that Lamb was standing over the body at around one o'clock and Smith was at the Commercial Rd/Berner St intersection at about that time. I find the suggestion that Lamb could easily have been out by 6 minutes in order to fit Eagle's guess of time based on a starting point that he could only guess within a 15 minute period over an hour before to be logically flawed. The same applies to the time guesstimates of Brown and Spooner. Hoschberg and Kozebrodski were at least in the club at the time of the discovery of the body, and we know there was at least one clock in the club because Eagle specifically stated that he did not look at it, yet their times are dismissed in favour of wild guesses by others.

I mostly agree with this, but it is not at all certain the Herschburg was in the club at the time of the discovery. Yes there is a press report to that affect, but that is not what he told the press. It seems likely though, that Abraham did discuss the murder with some members of the club - he knows too much not to have. It's also a little odd that we have AH guessing a time of 12:45 for hearing a whistle, and in the evening Schwartz decides to pick a time for his story that, unfortunately for him, coincides with James Brown fetching his supper and seeing nothing suspicious, but which just happens to be the same time as supposed by Herschburg - 12:45.

I am aware that you started the thread " A closer look at Leon Goldstein". I was the final poster on that thread, and I know that new evidence does not sit well with those who are rusted on to traditional theories.

It sure doesn't, but what's this "final poster on that thread"? That thread will go on terrorizing the traditionalists for years to come! LOL

The tradition of doorway viewing was common in those days, as was sitting on the front verandah in later years. We don't know how many women stood in doorways that night, only that there were at least two around 12:30 to 1:00. We know that one was Fanny Mortimer, another was Letchford's sister, who was not Fanny Mortimer, and one was the wife of a well to do artisan, which was not Fanny Mortimer, but may have been Letchford's sister.

That is, if Charles Letchford is to be believed.

The reports sound similar because they are about the same event. One says she came from the door and prepared for bed, the other didn't relate her door stoop viewing to her bedtime. The third interview was quite different - was there a mistake in the door count?

The interview report begins...

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

Number 36 was 3 doors from the gateway of number 40 (the club). It was also 2 doors from number 40, by address. The interview occurred right at the Mortimer's front door. The wife of a well-to-do artisan bit is something I cannot explain. Perhaps it had something to do with how the woman was dressed? Similar to...

This foreigner was well dressed, and had the appearance of being in the theatrical line.

The woman who saw Goldstein headed north did not quote times so we can't deduce anything other than it was before the discovery of the body and, with a 12 minute return trip to the Spectacle coffee house, presumably before the sighting of his journey south.

Before? How does that make sense? She says:

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

So it was just before she turned in, and not long after that...

... I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body.

So this must have been the later sighting. This was the earlier one...

FM: It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went around the corner by the Board School.

That was previously. Think about that word George - it is redundant if Fanny only saw him once.

[GBinOz]

Hi Caz,

Could it be that you are being a little harsh in your description "a doorstep dwelling busybody"? It was a common practice at the time, before radio. In Australia my grandparents often sat on their front porch, as did their neighbours on their's, to watch the goings on in the street and to gossip.

I thought it may be helpful to group together in one post the three articles dealing with "doorstep busybodies" from the Evening News of Oct 1 1888:

INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.
Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.
TEN INCHES OF COLD STEEL.
"I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.

"Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.
MURDERED WITHIN SOUND OF MUSIC AND DANCING.
"Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.

"Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm."

"Was the street quiet at the time?"

"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."
A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!
" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"

"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"

"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."


THE SILENCE OF THE MURDERER.
When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises. A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.


Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gate with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went around the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

If anyone knows of reports in other publications, please share.

Traditionally it has been thought that all these interviews were with Fanny Mortimer. The red account reads like a report and the green reads like an interview. The red account says she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor. My understanding is that the front room was for entertaining and the bedrooms were upstairs. William Mortimer, her husband died early in 1889, so was his wife caring for a sick man on the ground floor and therefore going back and forth to the door? Note that in the red account there is no mention of her going to the yard. In the green account she arrives at the yard after Spooner, but the blue account has her arriving with only 2 or 3 people in the yard, including Diemshitz and his wife.

Let the battle begin:

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Isn't Lamb simply stating it as a fact that he was on duty in Commercial Road shortly before one o'clock? I think we might be in danger of taking it too literally if we infer that the clock had not moved on one second when he first saw the two men running towards him and shouting. He was setting the scene IMHO, probably with the knowledge that all the commotion had begun from "around 1am". He didn't suddenly arrive in Commercial Road to see the men approaching him. So I read it that he was already there shortly before 1am, to see the men when they ran towards him. He could go by his usual beat times to put himself there just before the hour, in time to see the men, but he was still only estimating if he had no clock or pocket watch to consult.

Had he said: "Last Sunday morning I was on duty in Commercial Road when, shortly before one o'clock, I saw two men running towards me and shouting", that would have done away with any ambiguity, but the question would then have been how could he have known if it was shortly before the hour, as opposed to on the hour, or shortly past the hour, when the men came into view?

This might look like special pleading to some, but the language used in those days can often be infuriatingly imprecise to modern eyes, leading to different interpretations of the same words, and we can't ask them to clarify what they meant!

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

I can see what you mean and have re-read Lamb's statement a dozen times, but just can't agree with your suggestion. Lamb replied to a question at the inquest saying that he passed the intersection of Commercial Road and Berner Street 6-7 minutes before he arrived at Dutfields yard. (There are those who insist he was 6 minutes out in this estimate.) The tobacconist clock that Diemshitz claimed to have viewed is at that intersection. I am in the minority of those who believe that Lamb is more likely to have looked at that clock on one or both occassions that he passed it than did Diemshitz. So Lamb, on his normal beat, passes that intersection headed east on the way to the fixed point at Grove St. He then turns around and heads west on his normal beat. In his testimony he is stating a time and place for when the two men were running towards him shouting. A minute or two later, at about 1 o'clock, he is in Dutfields yard and Smith stated that he was at the intersection of Commercial Road and Berner Street at one o'clock, the same time that Diemshitz said he was turning into Berner St from Commercial Road. Remembering that in every other statement before the inquest he said he turned into Berner St at his usual time of about one o'clock, except for one statement where he said 12:45 because he came home early due to the rain, are you going to say that Diemshitz was right and two police constables were wrong? That is not to suggest that Diemshitz was deliberately lying. Witnesses are known for sub consciously augmenting what they actually saw and he may have just firmed up his "usual time" for the inquest.

I asked Monty the question: how important was correct time to police constables. His reply was very important. I think it is time to determine an answer for the question: How did police constables keep an accurate track on time without pocket watches. I suspect that perhaps the overseeing seargent would set a pocket watch to GMT from the telegraphed time at the local police station and then provide clock corrections for clocks on the PC's rounds, but I'll follow that up.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

So basically we have to ask ourselves one question only. Is there anything that we know for a fact that absolutely disproves the ‘official’ version of events? The answer to that is a resounding ‘no.’

And yes, the Police had more reason to have been aware of the time than most civilians but that still doesn’t mean that they knew the exact time at any point in time. In 2021 and with a mobile phone in my pocket you could ask me the time 20 times a day and I guarantee that at some point I’d be 20 minutes out. And it would be complete luck if I ever gave the exact time. So to allow a Victorian Constable a bit of leeway should be no hardships or anyone.

Herlock....maaate,

What would you like to present as absolute fact? Police reports? Anderson, McNaughten, Swanson and Aberline were not unified in their opinions or statements. Press reports? Conflicting reports of inquest statements? If you just assemble the "facts" that agree with your opinion, that does not represent an offical version, it's cognitive bias.

I will allow a Victorian Constable leeway of a minute or two, a Victorian clock owner a leeway of 10 minutes or so, and guesstimators of times of an hour or so a leeway of +/- 20 or more minutes.

Cheers, George