The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The AF states: "The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one". Which is precisely what many witness accounts suggest. Im sure Herlock thinks the article author is wrong too, but how many corroborative accounts can one person ignore before finally getting a "light bulb" moment?

You might consider that 'about a quarter to one' is Schwartz' time - they are implicitly referring to Schwartz. As was Wess, in the Echo report of Oct 1. So in the few days between that report and the writing of this edition of the Worker's Friend, the position has not changed.

[JeffHamm]

The AF states: "The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one". Which is precisely what many witness accounts suggest. Im sure Herlock thinks the article author is wrong too, but how many corroborative accounts can one person ignore before finally getting a "light bulb" moment?

From the AF:
"
..............
The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one. That evening there was a discussion in the club: “Should a Jew be a Socialist?” The hall was packed and the discussion was very lively. The debate went on until approximately eleven o’clock. At about 12 o’clock all the non-members scattered, and about twenty of the members remained in the club. These same [members] created a choir and sang various songs, for the most part, Russian.
[P. 3, col. 1 cont’d]
At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body.
............................
"

These statements would be entirely consistent, both with each other, and with the Schwartz incident, often thought to have occurred around, 12:45. The first bolded sentence is about the time at which Stride was killed. The bold/underlined sentence is about when Deimshutz arrived at the club (1 o'clock according to the AF). And the bolded/italic statement confirms he was the first to find the body.

While the first of the last two sentences, concerning Deimshutz, would be an objective fact, in the sense it is something directly observable. While, obviously, one could question the accuracy of the time, there is no reason to suggest that Deimshutz's arrival is only being theorized (he was obviously there, at the club, so had to arrive, and did so when others were present, etc), and the time of his arrival he states he obtained from a clock, and there is no direct evidence to refute his statement. Also, there was apparently a clock in the club, and given the excitement of the event, it is not a huge stretch to suggest that someone (maybe someone we no longer have the statement of) had checked the time and was able to confirm Deimshutz's arrival time. I don't know that, but given the number of people who where there, and the fact we know those people were eventually questioned, if anyone in the club, known to us or not, checked the club clock, there is no indication that the time Deimshutz gave for his discovery was considered suspect.

The last statement, that Deimshutz was the first to notice the dead body, is an interpretation of course. I could make up a story where someone else found Stride, or noticed her, but never reported it, or didn't realise she was dead (i.e. think Nichols, even after a brief examination of her Cross and Paul both were not sure if she was dead or drunk). Regardless, we can at least draw the inference that Deimshutz was the first to notice the body and raise the alarm, which I believe is the intent and I'm just risking being called pedantic. Challenge accepted.

The first bolded sentence, also has to be viewed as an interpretation. Unless the author of the AF's story murdered Stride, and took note of the time when they did so, they are reporting on what appears to be the time it was believed she was killed. The time she was killed, however, is not the time she was discovered and the general alarm was raised.

In short, the AF's article, as it reports the events and times, does not correspond with the "cover up" theory, which places the time of her discovery at 12:45 ish. AF clearly reports her discovery to have been at 1 o'clock.

- Jeff

i havent been following the argument, but the medical evidence points to the time of death at 0045 to 0100hrs.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Interesting that they say that it took ten minutes to locate the police. I've read accounts ranging from arriving within minutes to taking 15 minutes to arrive.

Why not take their word for it? So if Diemschitz arrived at about 1am, and Lamb 1:05, then the body was discovered -5 minutes after Diemschitz arrived.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The AF states: "The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one". Which is precisely what many witness accounts suggest. Im sure Herlock thinks the article author is wrong too, but how many corroborative accounts can one person ignore before finally getting a "light bulb" moment?

It’s not a light bulb moment that’s needed Michael. 12.45 is an obvious error. And an error can very easily be repeated, especially in a later re-telling. Why can’t you have a light bulb moment and realise that everything points against this. We can keep going over the list of very obvious objections that you can keep ignoring but nothing will change the fact we know what happened. If you want to construct a theory based on 2 erring witnesses then that’s up to you I guess but your lack of support should have told you something by now.

[Michael W Richards]

The AF states: "The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one". Which is precisely what many witness accounts suggest. Im sure Herlock thinks the article author is wrong too, but how many corroborative accounts can one person ignore before finally getting a "light bulb" moment?

[GBinOz]

Here is the thread on the Arbeter Fraint article. Bear in mind of course that it has been translated from the original Yiddish (there are a few notes on this in post #6)

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...-fraint-s-take

Thanks Joshua,

I have just scanned the actual take and, while a little dramatic, it is not too far from other accounts. Interesting that they say that it took ten minutes to locate the police. I've read accounts ranging from arriving within minutes to taking 15 minutes to arrive.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Here is the thread on the Arbeter Fraint article. Bear in mind of course that it has been translated from the original Yiddish (there are a few notes on this in post #6)

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...-fraint-s-take

Thanks Joshua

[Joshua Rogan]

Here is the thread on the Arbeter Fraint article. Bear in mind of course that it has been translated from the original Yiddish (there are a few notes on this in post #6)

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/elizabeth-stride/6778-arbeter-fraint-s-take

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Don't worry about the "new employee". Andrew asked what reason had Stride for being in the gateway and I threw in a total speculation that she may have gotten a cleaning job in the club, and it went from there.

Cheers, George

Understood George

[GBinOz]

Can someone please link to the Arbeier Freint nonsense as I can’t find it. If this is the source of alleged confusion of course.

And who is this ‘new employee?’

Yes, I’ll take any comments about being slow or stupid or whatever but my brain is now in the habit of going into ‘switch off’ mode when I hear this CT talk.

Hi Herlock,

Don't worry about the "new employee". Andrew asked what reason had Stride for being in the gateway and I threw in a total speculation that she may have gotten a cleaning job in the club, and it went from there.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Can someone please link to the Arbeier Freint nonsense as I can’t find it. If this is the source of alleged confusion of course.

And who is this ‘new employee?’

Yes, I’ll take any comments about being slow or stupid or whatever but my brain is now in the habit of going into ‘switch off’ mode when I hear this CT talk.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think Wess's statement is subject to clock calibration and the persons concerned were Diemshitz and Jacobs and was well after Schwartz. A time error of 5 minutes clears up a lot of paradoxes.

Let me try again, because in #601 I stuffed up when saying...

Yet that begs the question; why does Wess imply that 'the public' had possibly misunderstood the situation, yet still place the event after the murder?

In the Echo report, the man pursued escapes. According to Schwartz, he ran from the pipe-smoker to one of the railway arches, but the pursuer did not follow that far. Both events were said to occur at about 12:45. It is the same story, with one vital difference - according to Schwartz, the event occurs pre-murder, but Wess's account occurs post-murder. So which if either account, is correct?

The misconstrued chase theory makes little sense - one of the two men does not escape, but rather they return together. According to yourself, Kozebrodsky supposedly ran close behind the other two, and then went in another direction. Was he perceived as chasing the other two? Failing that theory then, we have to question why Wess is seemingly supporting Schwartz' story, yet at the same time casting Schwartz as the murderer. Was Wess hedging bets?

I'm claiming that Schwartz and Pipeman ran down Berner street, rather than Fairclough because Schwartz said he had just stepped off the kerb when pipeman moved towards him, and he ran down to the Arches. Berner St leads to the Arches.

Like that is the only way to get to one of the arches. If he ran along Fairclough and turned into Christian street, for example, he would end up at an arch. He would also, as chance would have it, end up near the residence of one Leon Goldstein.

Harris chasing Spooner would be the opposite direction to the description.

Did Mr Harris, probably Spooner's senior, run down Spooner, or did Spooner meet Harris on the way?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't know if she even was a new employee but if so, he may not have wished to volunteer a connection between the club and the victim. This is all just conjecture.

Sure. Not volunteering this information would have been a risk for Wess, if Stride had told anyone where she we going that night, or that she had obtained work at the club.

IMO the man seen by Best & Gardner, Marshall and Smith was the same man. I think Brown saw the couple mentioned by Mortimer.

As you know, the female member of the couple said they had been standing there about 20 minutes, but neither heard any unusual noises. Now if you want Diemschitz home by about 12:50, there are going to be unusual noises by 12:55 at the very latest. So the 20 minutes starts at 12:35. If she were way out, it starts at 12:45. I'm sure you know what I'm getting at.

[GBinOz]

If this misconstrued chase occurred at about 12:45, when did the Schwartz incident occur?

It would be quite a paradox if it were falsely perceived that a man was being pursued along Fairclough street at 12:45, and yet we have Schwartz, claiming to have been pursued down the street at pretty much the same time.

Could it be that knowledge of this misconstrued chase provided the template for Schwartz' account (or at least that part of it)? Yet that begs the question; why does Wess imply that 'the public' had possibly misunderstood the situation, yet still place the event after the murder? Also, why did he conveniently forget the name of the man who supposedly gave chase? Yet the most important question for the misconstrued chase theory is; why were perceptions not corrected when the two men doubled-back, and stopped to pick up Spooner? According to the Echo report, the man pursued escaped.

You're also claiming that Schwartz and Pipeman ran down Berner street, rather than Fairclough. Presumably this is because if they had run along Fairclough, Spooner would have seen them and reported it. Yet that leaves us with a curious coincidence. Spooner did report that a man 'pursued' him, as he was running to the yard - Mr Harris. He said: He came running after me.

I think Wess's statement is subject to clock calibration and the persons concerned were Diemshitz and Jacobs and was well after Schwartz. A time error of 5 minutes clears up a lot of paradoxes.

I'm claiming that Schwartz and Pipeman ran down Berner street, rather than Fairclough because Schwartz said he had just stepped off the kerb when pipeman moved towards him, and he ran down to the Arches. Berner St leads to the Arches. Harris chasing Spooner would be the opposite direction to the description.

Cheers, George