The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[Michael W Richards]

I forgot, Spooner didnt get there till what, after 1, right? When Louis first arrives supposedly, which means Lamb doesnt get there until 5 minutes later, at what...1:06? How does Johnson then get the call at 1:06? Seems like the way you like it is at around 1:05 Lamb is with Eagle in the yard after seeing Eagle on the streets looking for help, and they are joined by Issac, also out looking for help. Remarkable that Eagle and Issac leave for help before Louis even arrives, and that somehow Johnson is called before Lamb is even in the passageway.

But of course your the genius and the rest of us are the idiots, Im sure you can just cancel out accounts that dont fit with you elevated intelligence, and the men who speak of an early discovery time are simply helpless without any way of estimating time. Just like Lamb. Or Fanny.

Lots of very lost people in your head, huh? Good thing we have the word of the man who is arrested because he attacks police with a club within 6 months to go by....right at that location too. Nice to have a solid witness, who apparently is the only man within a stones throw that can tell time too. What luck.

[Michael W Richards]

Lamb said just before 1.00.” This isn’t exact and between 12.55 and 1.00 is likelier by far than between 12.45 and 12.55. And even then it simply cannot be impossible that he might have been out in his estimate by 5 minutes or so.

Spooner arrived 5 minutes before Lamb.

I just took out the incorrect quote from Lamb and left the accurate one, and voila, you have Lamb arriving before 1, around 12:55 as you prefer, and Spooner 5 minutes before him, at approx 12:50.

Didnt notice that both are before 1, when Louis says he first arrived? That means Spooner saw men out on the street before 12:50, and that those men were sent for help from the passageway before that. Like Issac said.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Since there are witnesses that say they were by Louis, in the passageway, at 12:40....yep, that means that Louis didnt arrive at that time. It means he was there at that time.

2 rogue witnesses against around 10.

Close

[Herlock Sholmes]

That last line is a fine epitaph for your arrogance, should frame it. Issac K said he returned at 12:30, or half past, and 10 minutes later he was summoned. I guess your argument is that he didnt check a clock either, or that he couldnt read a clock, or that he was brain damaged and got times wrong by 20 minutes or so all the time. Anyone of those, with the proof, would be some evidence to support your banal "everyone is wrong but the guys I support" arguments, but since you obviously dont have such evidence, you believe your opinion is enough to satisfy us. It isnt, you havent the cred.

Childishly simple to answer.

Why doesn’t this ‘must have seen a clock’ rule apply to Eagle?

Try honesty for change.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ive never said once that Fanny was at her door at 12:45, maybe thats someone else your arguing with. I have said, because Fanny said it, that she was at her door from 12:50 until 1 which is why she saw Leon and why she didnt see Louis arrive.

And stop trying to bolster your own perceptions by questioning statements that are made by the police concerning timings. Youve been told oh so many times that ONLY the police had a mandate to watch their times all shift long. Lamb said he saw the men before 1am, that means Eagle and Kozebroski had been out looking before that time, which means they were out on the street well before Louis even says he arrives.

Your lack of comprehension doesnt equate to any errors on my part with this, youve simply thrown away whatever statements you want to and suggested that everyone else except for the staff was incorrect, or do you think the multiple witnesses purposely lied? Not sure what youve decided about that question.

It’s like wrestling an eel.

Ok so Fanny was at her door from 12.50 an that’s why she didn’t see Schwartz.

Give up.

Youre an embarrassment.

[Michael W Richards]

I have access to the tin of soup in my cupboard. Does that mean I’ve eaten the soup?

I have access to the documentary that I recorded on Monday. Does that mean that I’ve already watched it?

We’ve had this kind of ‘thinking’ from others. Just because there was a clock in the club it doesn’t automatically follow that they saw it anytime near to the event. The fact that Hoschberg said “about” and “I should think” tells us quite plainly that he wasn’t going by a clock but estimating. And we don’t know how long ago that he’d seen a clock to have made that estimation.

Two men give timing estimations that don’t match the other witnesses. They were both in the yard when the police were there. I suspect that one asked the other what the time was when they’d first seen the body. Or that one heard the other being questioned by the police.

Either way, 12.45 was blatantly wrong.

That last line is a fine epitaph for your arrogance, should frame it. Issac K said he returned at 12:30, or half past, and 10 minutes later he was summoned. I guess your argument is that he didnt check a clock either, or that he couldnt read a clock, or that he was brain damaged and got times wrong by 20 minutes or so all the time. Anyone of those, with the proof, would be some evidence to support your banal "everyone is wrong but the guys I support" arguments, but since you obviously dont have such evidence, you believe your opinion is enough to satisfy us. It isnt, you havent the cred.

[Michael W Richards]

As I’ve repeatedly said we shouldn’t try to reverse engineer events by narrow times.

Louis 1.00/ Lamb 1.05/ Smith 1.06

or

Louis 1.00/ Lamb 1.04/ Smith 1.05

or even

Louis 12.59/ Lamb 12.03/ Smith 1.04

……

Louis at 12.44 or 12.45 just doesn’t work.

Since there are witnesses that say they were by Louis, in the passageway, at 12:40....yep, that means that Louis didnt arrive at that time. It means he was there at that time.

[Michael W Richards]

More dishonesty.

Lamb said “around 1.00” or “just before 1.00.” This isn’t exact and between 12.55 and 1.00 is likelier by far than between 12.45 and 12.55. And even then it simply cannot be impossible that he might have been out in his estimate by 5 minutes or so.

Spooner arrived 5 minutes before Lamb.

Louis said 1.00.

His wife said 1.00.

The club servants said 1.00.

Wess said 1.00.

Minsky said 1.00.

Eagle said 1.00.

Gilleman said 1.00.

And again Michael I’ll ask the question……IF FANNY MORTIMER WENT ONTO HER DOORSTEP AT 12.45 AS YOU’VE REPEATEDLY CLAIMED HOW COME SHE NEITHER SAW OR HEARD ANY OF THIS COMMOTION IN THE YARD AT 12.45? HOW COME SHE DIDNT SEE OR HEAR DIEMSCHUTZ ARRIVING BACK BEFORE 12.45.

No matter how much you wriggle or manipulate your laughable cover up falls.

Do the decent thing and give it up. At least save a little face.

Ive never said once that Fanny was at her door at 12:45, maybe thats someone else your arguing with. I have said, because Fanny said it, that she was at her door from 12:50 until 1 which is why she saw Leon and why she didnt see Louis arrive.

And stop trying to bolster your own perceptions by questioning statements that are made by the police concerning timings. Youve been told oh so many times that ONLY the police had a mandate to watch their times all shift long. Lamb said he saw the men before 1am, that means Eagle and Kozebroski had been out looking before that time, which means they were out on the street well before Louis even says he arrives.

Your lack of comprehension doesnt equate to any errors on my part with this, youve simply thrown away whatever statements you want to and suggested that everyone else except for the staff was incorrect, or do you think the multiple witnesses purposely lied? Not sure what youve decided about that question.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Not odd at all. If someone says “there’s a body in the yard” the natural response is just to head to it. Not to think “hold on, I better check the time first so that I can give an accurate time when I’m questioned by the Police. After all, we wouldn’t want crackpots in a 100 years time getting the wrong end of the stick would we?”

Yes, I'd forgotten that Herschburg's mother had said...

Abraham, apparently there's a body in lying in Dutfield's Yard. Can you go down there and see what the matter is?

Actually, he was alerted to the situation by a police whistle, which was blown by a WVC man. Those guys were everywhere. Joseph Koster was near to the murder scene, at the time of the murder. Herschburg knew Koster. Where was Herschburg when he heard the whistle? Come to think of it, where was Mr Harris? There were three Harris's in the WVC, that we know of. Surely not?

[Herlock Sholmes]

And about 5 minutes after Louis. So when did Smith arrive? About 1:12?

[/

As I’ve repeatedly said we shouldn’t try to reverse engineer events by narrow times.

Louis 1.00/ Lamb 1.05/ Smith 1.06

or

Louis 1.00/ Lamb 1.04/ Smith 1.05

or even

Louis 12.59/ Lamb 12.03/ Smith 1.04

……

Louis at 12.44 or 12.45 just doesn’t work.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's a little odd that Herschburg didn't look at clock before he "came down" to the gateway. Perhaps he'd been on the street?

Not odd at all. If someone says “there’s a body in the yard” the natural response is just to head to it. Not to think “hold on, I better check the time first so that I can give an accurate time when I’m questioned by the Police. After all, we wouldn’t want crackpots in a 100 years time getting the wrong end of the stick would we?”

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
The conspiracy then was by the paid staff members alone, and was to preserve their jobs and prevent further anti immigrant jew mania across London

So the first thought of these club members after finding the murdered woman was “ oh damn, the ripper has struck again! The police will obviously blame us for hosting the Whitechapel murderer for a ‘one night only’ performance. They’ll close us down what shall we do? Shall we just move the body? No….too obvious. Shall we claim to have have seen and heard the killer escaping…..no too simple. I know we’ll find someone who can’t speak English to relate a story of a verbal insult and just hope to luck that no one was able to disprove this and that no one saw Louis get back before 1.00.”

It never ceases to raise a chuckle when I think how an experience Ripperologist can even begin to believe this fantasy. Of course there’s a difference between believing something and needing it to be true.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Spooner arrived 5 minutes before Lamb.

And about 5 minutes after Louis. So when did Smith arrive? About 1:12?

Louis said 1.00.

His wife said 1.00.

The club servants said 1.00.

Wess said 1.00.

Minsky said 1.00.

Eagle said 1.00.

Gilleman said 1.00.

You forgot one. Fanny said just after one.

By the way, wasn't Wess at home by 1:00?

C: How do you know that you finally left at a quarter-past twelve o'clock?
W: Because of the time when I reached my lodgings.

Are you cooking up a new conspiracy theory?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Either way, 12.45 was blatantly wrong.

It's a little odd that Herschburg didn't look at clock before he "came down" to the gateway. Perhaps he'd been on the street?

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
The larger picture here is that based on Lamb, Spooner, Issac K and Heschberg, Louis and others were by the dying woman at least 15 minutes before Louis claimed to have arrived. Lamb was summoned before 1am. That indicates a search party for help going out at least 5 minutes prior, and Issac K says he met up with that party which included Eagle, when Eagle and Lamb were returning to the club. All before 1am.

More dishonesty.

Lamb said “around 1.00” or “just before 1.00.” This isn’t exact and between 12.55 and 1.00 is likelier by far than between 12.45 and 12.55. And even then it simply cannot be impossible that he might have been out in his estimate by 5 minutes or so.

Spooner arrived 5 minutes before Lamb.

Louis said 1.00.

His wife said 1.00.

The club servants said 1.00.

Wess said 1.00.

Minsky said 1.00.

Eagle said 1.00.

Gilleman said 1.00.

And again Michael I’ll ask the question……IF FANNY MORTIMER WENT ONTO HER DOORSTEP AT 12.45 AS YOU’VE REPEATEDLY CLAIMED HOW COME SHE NEITHER SAW OR HEARD ANY OF THIS COMMOTION IN THE YARD AT 12.45? HOW COME SHE DIDNT SEE OR HEAR DIEMSCHUTZ ARRIVING BACK BEFORE 12.45.

No matter how much you wriggle or manipulate your laughable cover up falls.

Do the decent thing and give it up. At least save a little face.