Why did Pipe Man chase Israel Schwartz away?

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  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Losmandris View Post

    For me I believe JtR watches the 'altercation' and arrives on the scene as a bit of knight in shining armor/ready punter. I think BS is seen by stride as a potential client, she pesters him a bit, he has no of it and pushes her off. JtR picks her up and brushes her down and she leads him into the yard. She offers him a cachous or does something to freak him out, so he just cuts her throat before rapidly departing.
    Is this JtR also Pipeman? Because if it is, perhaps you could explain why Pipeman does not appear on the Met's apprehensions sought list. Also, could you explain why Stride would have seen this BS character as a potential client, and decided to pester him? What on earth for? Now you might come up with very good answers for these questions, but at this point it seems to me that you're trying a bit too hard to make sense of Schwartz's story.

    For everyone else, if Pipeman had possibly chased Schwartz away (as per the title of this thread), he could have been an accomplice of the murderer, and so the police must have wanted to talk to him. Yet he is not on that list. Why not? Well if he was found and cleared, we are left to wonder why there is no record of this, from any source. We would also wonder why he fled the scene, as Schwartz himself claimed to, when this snippet from the Star suggests otherwise:

    The police have been told that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the woman murdered in Berner-street to the ground. Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it.

    If Pipeman claimed to have neither fled nor chased away another man, then Schwartz's story would seem to be false. Obviously, Pipeman must have been identified and questioned for him to have denied running from the scene. Yet if that was what had occurred, how could the police have known which of the two men (Pipeman, Schwartz) was telling the truth? A clue may be contained in the Star quote (above). How did the person whose statement was the basis for the report, know that the woman thrown to the ground was also the woman murdered?

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  • GBinOz
    replied
    Originally posted by Losmandris View Post

    For me I believe JtR watches the 'altercation' and arrives on the scene as a bit of knight in shining armor/ready punter. I think BS is seen by stride as a potential client, she pesters him a bit, he has no of it and pushes her off. JtR picks her up and brushes her down and she leads him into the yard. She offers him a cachous or does something to freak him out, so he just cuts her throat before rapidly departing.
    Hi Tristan,

    I agree with most of your scenario. If BS Man is rejected there appears to be limited alternatives available. So who do you believe finally held the knife that cut Lizzie's throat?
    Pipe man
    Parcel Man
    A third person, identity unknown..... or to be named.....perhaps you have someone in mind?

    Cheers, George

    Leave a comment:


  • c.d.
    replied
    Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
    The Foreman - Do you not think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted?
    Phillips - That is an inference which the jury would be perfectly entitled to draw.

    Regards Darryl
    There are certainly recorded instances of people taking a hard fall and still managing to hold on to something but I think that is the exception rather than the norm. I also think in those cases that the objects were hard and substantial such as a purse or a glass. In this instance, it is just cachous wrapped in tissue paper. And while they might have been able to survive being thrown to the ground, I think the real test would have been holding on to them if dragged back into the yard and trying to fight off the B.S. man. It is possible that she went with him voluntarily but I find that unlikely.

    I think it much more likely than not that the cachous could not have withstood all that happened without spilling. That leads me to believe that she did not have them in her hand during the encounter with the B.S man but took them out after he had left and before her killer (the Ripper) came on the scene.

    Just an opinion. I have to wonder if the Foreman was thinking along those lines as well.

    I would also add that Phillips response seems to take it out of the realm of some far fetched theory.

    c.d.

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  • Darryl Kenyon
    replied
    The Foreman - Do you not think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted?
    Phillips - That is an inference which the jury would be perfectly entitled to draw.

    Regards Darryl

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Losmandris View Post

    For me I believe JtR watches the 'altercation' and arrives on the scene as a bit of knight in shining armor/ready punter. I think BS is seen by stride as a potential client, she pesters him a bit, he has no of it and pushes her off. JtR picks her up and brushes her down and she leads him into the yard. She offers him a cachous or does something to freak him out, so he just cuts her throat before rapidly departing.
    hi Los
    possibly but there is just no evidence for this phantom ripper. BS man, seen by schwarz, fits the other witness descriptions that night (peaked cap and all)-Marshall, lawende and co, possibly smith. To me there really is no mystery here-BS/peaked cap man was the ripper he killed stride and eddowes and was seen with both victims shortly before he killed them. he was a bit agitated by all this so shortly after wrote the gsg and left the bloody apron.

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  • Losmandris
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    agree. from the folks who were former police on here and from cops i know and talk to, including my nephew, the chances of a woman being assaulted and then shortly thereafter being assaulted again from two unrelated men/incidents is dam near zero. The man seen by Schwartz-Broad shoulders aka as peaked cap man killed nichols and was the ripper.

    (cue cashoo nonsense)
    For me I believe JtR watches the 'altercation' and arrives on the scene as a bit of knight in shining armor/ready punter. I think BS is seen by stride as a potential client, she pesters him a bit, he has no of it and pushes her off. JtR picks her up and brushes her down and she leads him into the yard. She offers him a cachous or does something to freak him out, so he just cuts her throat before rapidly departing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by c.d. View Post

    "Assaulted" is an extremely loaded word. Change it to pushed to the ground (and we are not even sure that was deliberate) and it doesn't sound nearly so sinister.

    As for cue "cashoo" nonsense, I believe you mean cachous.

    c.d.
    Gesundheit

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  • c.d.
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    agree. from the folks who were former police on here and from cops i know and talk to, including my nephew, the chances of a woman being assaulted and then shortly thereafter being assaulted again from two unrelated men/incidents is dam near zero. The man seen by Schwartz-Broad shoulders aka as peaked cap man killed nichols and was the ripper.

    (cue cashoo nonsense)
    "Assaulted" is an extremely loaded word. Change it to pushed to the ground (and we are not even sure that was deliberate) and it doesn't sound nearly so sinister.

    As for cue "cashoo" nonsense, I believe you mean cachous.

    c.d.

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

    That would have been a extremly unlucky for Stride then , what are the chances of being assaulted by a man at 12.45am according to Schwarzt, and then being discovered dead at 1.00 am ? Bearing in mind the time it would take for the assault and the time befor the discovery of the body narrows it down even more id say about half 7/8 mins, two attacts two different men? not impossible, but unlikely in my book , Nahhhh, for me strides killer was the ripper . Just sayin
    agree. from the folks who were former police on here and from cops i know and talk to, including my nephew, the chances of a woman being assaulted and then shortly thereafter being assaulted again from two unrelated men/incidents is dam near zero. The man seen by Schwartz-Broad shoulders aka as peaked cap man killed nichols and was the ripper.

    (cue cashoo nonsense)

    Leave a comment:


  • FISHY1118
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    Im not convinced that the man that was seen having an altercation with Stride was the ripper. After being clearly seen assaulting her would he really have gone on to kill right at that spot? There was hardly a shortage of prostitutes. Its not impossible of course but it would appear to have been an unnecessary risk. Also the fact that she screamed but not very loudly might indicate that this was just an angry punter or even someone that she knew.
    That would have been a extremly unlucky for Stride then , what are the chances of being assaulted by a man at 12.45am according to Schwarzt, and then being discovered dead at 1.00 am ? Bearing in mind the time it would take for the assault and the time befor the discovery of the body narrows it down even more id say about half 7/8 mins, two attacts two different men? not impossible, but unlikely in my book , Nahhhh, for me strides killer was the ripper . Just sayin

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  • Al Bundy's Eyes
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
    This may sound incredible, but I think I've worked out who Pipeman is.
    I discovered the telltale clue to his identity in the Morning Advertiser, of Oct 3.
    It was actually within the text of Edward Spooner's testimony:

    By a Juryman. - I did not meet anyone as I was hastening to Berner-street, except Mr. Harris, who was coming out of his house in Tiger Bay when he heard the policeman's whistle. He came running after me.

    You see, when Mr Harris heard the police whistle, he started running after Edward Spooner.
    Clearly Mr Harris is Pipeman!
    I don't know what sort of conditioning would cause this, but certain words or sounds seem to trigger Mr Harris into chasing after whatever friendly local is nearest to him at the time.
    Any ideas?
    Which would make Spooner 'Schwartz', leaving the real Israel Schwartz free to be at Mitre Square, where Lawende witnessed him, or some such.....sorry, what was the theory again?

    "Any ideas" you ask? I can think of one suggestion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
    This may sound incredible, but I think I've worked out who Pipeman is.
    I discovered the telltale clue to his identity in the Morning Advertiser, of Oct 3.
    It was actually within the text of Edward Spooner's testimony:

    By a Juryman. - I did not meet anyone as I was hastening to Berner-street, except Mr. Harris, who was coming out of his house in Tiger Bay when he heard the policeman's whistle. He came running after me.

    You see, when Mr Harris heard the police whistle, he started running after Edward Spooner.
    Clearly Mr Harris is Pipeman!
    I don't know what sort of conditioning would cause this, but certain words or sounds seem to trigger Mr Harris into chasing after whatever friendly local is nearest to him at the time.
    Any ideas?

    How does a man coming out of his house in Brunswick st (Tiger Bay) equate to Pipeman on the corner of Berner & Fairclough?
    My gut tells me I shouldn't have asked.....

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  • Observer
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
    Any ideas?
    Yes, stop winding up the good people of this Forum

    Leave a comment:


  • jerryd
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
    This may sound incredible, but I think I've worked out who Pipeman is.
    I discovered the telltale clue to his identity in the Morning Advertiser, of Oct 3.
    It was actually within the text of Edward Spooner's testimony:

    By a Juryman. - I did not meet anyone as I was hastening to Berner-street, except Mr. Harris, who was coming out of his house in Tiger Bay when he heard the policeman's whistle. He came running after me.

    You see, when Mr Harris heard the police whistle, he started running after Edward Spooner.
    Clearly Mr Harris is Pipeman!
    I don't know what sort of conditioning would cause this, but certain words or sounds seem to trigger Mr Harris into chasing after whatever friendly local is nearest to him at the time.
    Any ideas?
    https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...-square/page75 (post #1120)

    You said Lawende was Pipeman? Now Mr. Harris of Tiger Bay? Which one is it?

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    This may sound incredible, but I think I've worked out who Pipeman is.
    I discovered the telltale clue to his identity in the Morning Advertiser, of Oct 3.
    It was actually within the text of Edward Spooner's testimony:

    By a Juryman. - I did not meet anyone as I was hastening to Berner-street, except Mr. Harris, who was coming out of his house in Tiger Bay when he heard the policeman's whistle. He came running after me.

    You see, when Mr Harris heard the police whistle, he started running after Edward Spooner.
    Clearly Mr Harris is Pipeman!
    I don't know what sort of conditioning would cause this, but certain words or sounds seem to trigger Mr Harris into chasing after whatever friendly local is nearest to him at the time.
    Any ideas?

    Leave a comment:

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