If Stride Was a Victim of JTR, What Would It Tell Us?

[mariab]

Hi Maria,
Well aren't we arguing the same as Sugden that it is more probable than not that Liz was a Ripper victim?

Sure C.D., we both agree with Sudgen in aknowledging the evidence which points to the fact that Stride was almost certainly a Ripper slaying, still, this doesn't make Sugden less deficient in his discussion of Stride. (Which for Sugden is truly an exception to the rule.)
I really need to go to bed at some point, so, goodnight to everybody.

[Hunter]

I am comfortable with truth, not the idle speculation I see here.

There was a time when I highly valued your input on these boards. I thought your theory on Isenschmid was a classic example of using contemporary evidence and facts to promote a rational thesis... no matter whether I ultimately agreed with it or not. I thought it was spectacular.

But, for whatever reason, you have since chosen to disregard contemporary evidence and postulate a theory that has no bases in reality simply to attempt to tie the loose ends that have resulted in your belief that Isenschmid killed Mary Nichols and Annie Chapman... and someone else killed the others. That still may be the case, but trying to place the remaining victims in a different light than what everyone who knew them to be is destroying your credibility real fast my friend.

The rest of us - including every major researcher and credible author that has ever studied this case - may be fools, but you had better come up with evidence to back your claims or quit hijacking threads that had nothing to do with your theory to begin with.

[c.d.]

Hi Maria,

Well aren't we arguing the same as Sugden that it is more probable than not that Liz was a Ripper victim?

c.d.

[mariab]

Hi Lynn, you seem to want everything all tied up neat and orderly with all doubt removed. I am afraid it ain't gonna happen my friend. All we can do is speculate and attempt to weigh probabilities and try to determine what is more likely than not.

Actually, C.D., people are currently researching Berner Street, and it looks like the evidence might indeed end up coming all neat and orderly at some point in the not so distant future.

I think that with regard to Liz, Sugden said it best.

I'm afraid that, with regard to Stride, Sugden said it worse. Not surprisingly, Stride is one of the weakest points in all Ripper lit so far. But I assure you that this is about to change.

[c.d.]

If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

c.d.

[mariab]

Hello Maria. Show me that evidence--I'd LOVE to see it. But please, no sermon by Dr. B or something of that sort.

Hello Lynn, no sermon by Dr B, but read the Stride inquest, how many times she was arrested for prostitution and alcoholism, and what her acquaintancies had to say about her and her relationship with Kidney. As Hunter already pointed out, Stride was arrested in the East End 8 times in the 3 years previous to her murder for prostitution and drunkeness, and she went before the Thames Magistrate Court.

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

You seem to want everything all tied up neat and orderly with all doubt removed. I am afraid it ain't gonna happen my friend. All we can do is speculate and attempt to weigh probabilities and try to determine what is more likely than not.

I think that with regard to Liz, Sugden said it best. I can't remember the exact quote but he said something like there will always be doubts about the Stride case but given the evidence that we have, it is more probable than not that she was a victim of Jack the Ripper. I echo that completely.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

show me

Hello Maria. Show me that evidence--I'd LOVE to see it. But please, no sermon by Dr. B or something of that sort.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Hello CD.

"As long as you are not comfortable with the idea of a known prostitute engaging in prostitution, you will have a problem accepting any viable and reasonable explanation for Liz's actions."

I am comfortable with truth, not the idle speculation I see here.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

D & D

Hello Hunter. D & D is NOT prostitution.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Quote The Good Michael:
there was at least one waste pit and two privies in the back of the yard. One privy was even locked if I'm not mistaken, with no one in there.

So on a busy night we could expect club members to be visiting the yard frequently making it a less than ideal place for a pro to take a client.

(As I keep repeating in different Stride threads) we have the exact same situation as at Hanbury Street, with Cadosh walking up and down to the outhouse AND with a big gate/quick escape route close by.

Packer's stem wrote:
Berner Street was just a little too busy for JTR for my liking unless it was only ever going to be a quick job.
Berner Street was hardly any busier than Hanbury Street (the gate of which remained unlocked all night), and the Ripper's deeds were always a quick job (at least since Chapman).

Lynn, please trust what the evidence is saying: Stride was most definitely a prostitute and an alcoholic. As for her splitting with Kidney without severe physical abuse, please recall that it was their habit to split up every once in a while. Perhaps it was he who was throwing her out, not willing to deal with her during her most pronounced alcoholic episodes. And please rest assured that there's NOT a morsel of internal inconsistency or dissonance pertaining to the Stride case.

As usual, many thanks to Hunter for being both well-informed in the details and for being the voice of reason.

[packers stem]

anyone ever considered the possibility that Stride was mistaken for a potential witness in Hanbury Street.Elizabeth Long,Long Liz? and therefore just silenced on the way to seeking out Eddowes.Berner Street was just a little too busy for JTR for my liking unless it was only ever going to be a quick job.

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

I repeated this several times before, but it seems to get in the way of real fantasy theories. As Tom stated, her friends knew her as a prostitute; it is written down; the police knew her as a prostitute; she was arrested in the East End 8 times in the 3 previous years for prostitution and drunkeness and went before the Thames Magistrate Court. That is evidence, not some male fantasy.

That's too much reality for one post.

There are many women on these boards that believe Stride was soliciting and they can't be accused of 'male fantasy'.

Can you imagine the uproar if one dared to say that a theory was the product of the "female imagination"?

I would like to at least understand what the "male fantasy" is, and how it would alter our perception of what Stride was doing that regrettable night.

[Hunter]

I repeated this several times before, but it seems to get in the way of real fantasy theories. As Tom stated, her friends knew her as a prostitute; it is written down; the police knew her as a prostitute; she was arrested in the East End 8 times in the 3 previous years for prostitution and drunkeness and went before the Thames Magistrate Court. That is evidence, not some male fantasy. There are many women on these boards that believe Stride was soliciting and they can't be accused of 'male fantasy'.

There is a pattern with all of these women who were killed by whomever that is consistant with the danger they placed themselves in to be killed by 'person or persons unknown'... whether it was 1,2, 3 or more killers or whether it was Leather Apron, Jack the Ripper or the Whitechapel Murderer.

Contemporary evidence is there. It is your theory, Lynn, with no evidence whatsoever that is fantasy. At least her contemporaries such as Thomas Bates, the woman from Tiger Bay and the others who knew her sympathized with her predicament of doing whatever she had to do to survive in a world that was not too kind to a middle aged woman who had few choices in basic survival.

Charring, sewing and other menial work paid diddly squat. She had been in a revolving door relationship with Kidney for 3 years that only kept coming around because of that need for survival. That she still tried to manage some semblance of tidiness with all that her life had been is heartbreaking... despite the alcoholism and self inflicted wounds that she brought upon herself in reaching an infamous end to her life.

That little rose backed by a fern pinned to her breast while she lay in a freaking gutter with her throat cut is the most heartbreaking of all.

Give it a rest!

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

As long as you are not comfortable with the idea of a known prostitute engaging in prostitution, you will have a problem accepting any viable and reasonable explanation for Liz's actions.

We also don't know enough about Liz's relationship with alcohol at this point. Doing char work or any other type of work would probably mean that she would have to wait till the end of the week to get paid. Prostitution on the other hand would give her immediate access to money and thus drink.

c.d.