If Stride Was a Victim of JTR, What Would It Tell Us?

[mariab]

Indeed, the "Lipski" remark could easily have been directed at both Schwartz and Pipeman.

Not hardly. Not with Pipeman's pronounced “Nordic“ physical description.

The act of emerging from a building and lighting a pipe hardly exudes "accomplice" vibes.

If Pipeman was Charles Le Grand, nochalantly lighting his pipe while his accomplish (BS) manhandled Stride fully fits with Le Grand's MO from other cases (for which he went to trial).
By the by, if anyone has ever been to the Police Museum in Paris (Musée de le Préfecture de Police, at the Quartier Latin), it's a bit fragmentary, but spots some really interesting stuff. I was only able to do the inventaries of their archives, and I'm researching both Israel Schwartz (via the London anarchists) and Ostrog/Le Grand (in case Le Grand ever got arrested in Paris).

I still feel that the Lawende and Schwartz descriptions could easily apply to the same individual

Fully agree.

[Ben]

Agreed, Fish.

My take on "Pipeman", if he existed, is that he was just as spooked as Schwartz by the aggressive behaviour of the BS man, and fled the scene for exactly the same reason. Indeed, the "Lipski" remark could easily have been directed at both Schwartz and Pipeman. This makes considerably more sense that the "accomplice" theory, to my mind. The act of emerging from a building and lighting a pipe hardly exudes "accomplice" vibes.

I still feel that the Lawende and Schwartz descriptions could easily apply to the same individual, although the possibility always remains that the latter did not appear at the inquest because the police discredited his account.

All the best,
Ben

[Fisherman]

Jon S:

"Today there may be dozens of shades but in 19th century Britain they didn't have the technology available to modern fashion manufacturers."

True - but manufacturing a cloth made from combined nuances of colours in different threads would have been something they easily achieved! Any which way, even if there WAS a span ranging from lighter to darker variants, I still think that the much better guess is that "pepper & salt" pointed to a greyish garment than to a blackish one in Lawendes description. What looks black is also called black normally, and there is little reason to believe that Lawende would have chosen the description "salt & pepper" for a jacket that gave a black or very dark impression.

"The fact Lawende's suspect also had a grey cap might lend itself to have been to match the jacket?"

That´s one way of reading it. The other way, would of course be to think that if there was a distinction in description, then reasonably ...!

"it's still all conjecture"

Alas, yes.

The best,
Fisherman

[Wickerman]

It shows one of the many possible shades of salt & pepper coloration. Unfortunately, ”salt & pepper” seems to vary from light grey to almost black,..

Good point.
So the question should be posed, 'what shades were available in Victorian mens fashions?'.

Today there may be dozens of shades but in 19th century Britain they didn't have the technology available to modern fashion manufacturers.

Also, here is a Victorian mens salt and pepper tweed Inverness overcoat.

http://www.costumesofnashua.com/CNWebSite105/Active905/Pages/CostumeRental/Victorian/VictorianTurnOfTheCentury.htm

The fact Lawende's suspect also had a grey cap might lend itself to have been to match the jacket?
That said, it's still all conjecture.

Regards, Jon S.

[c.d.]

Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure you will) but I don't believe that Schwartz ever used the word "attack" in his description of what took place between the BS man and Liz.

c.d.

[DVV]

If Stride was a ripper victim, it would tell me that the killer :

1) purposely tried to deflect suspicions on Jews

2) may well have planned to kill twice that night

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"the Paris spy reports are about anarchist activity in London."

I appreciate that, Maria - which is why I said ...

"Pipeman might have been Le Grand and BS one of his minions"

Possibly, yes. But until we know that for certain (and as it stands, we know no such thing!), it remains that BS man is the much better choice as the potential killer of Stride. Let´s not get carried away!

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Quite the reverse, Maria.
Schwartz was witnessed actually attacking Elizabeth Stride, and any modern investigative force would consider the broad-shouldered man to be the vastly more probable of the two to have been the murderer.

Ben, Pipeman might have been Le Grand and BS one of his minions. The MO fits with their evidenced attacks on “unfortunates“.

Let me just say, though, that if we surmise that mr Schwartz of Berner Street fame stayed on in Britain, it would be slightly strange if he did not pick up acceptably on the language withing that 14-17 year span. Many loose ends here, though!

Hello Fisherman,
the Paris spy reports are about anarchist activity in London.

[Fisherman]

Hi all!

A few observations from this thread:

Jon S:

”this pic shows what a jacket & pants in "salt & pepper" colour looks like.”

It shows one of the many possible shades of salt & pepper coloration. Unfortunately, ”salt & pepper” seems to vary from light grey to almost black, so I don´t think we may conclude that Lawende´s description of the colour of the Church Passage man´s jacket rules him out as being identical with BS man.
That said, IF Church Passage man´s jacket had been a very dark shade of salt & pepper, then the poor lighting conditions in which he was observed would - one may speculate - perhaps have led Lawende to opt for "dark" or "black" instead of "salt & pepper", so my own guess is that the jacket he saw WAS a greyish and not a blackish one.

We also have the Star report, and that is more interesting here, since it tells us that BS man made a respectable impression, whereas Lawende´s fellow apparently made a rather shabby impression, which is why I feel confident that you are correct in saying ”I think it's a tough sell to propose they were the same man.” They were probably not.

Mariab:

”My Paris research at the Archives Nationales (in French spy reports pertaining to anarchist activity in Victorian Whitechapel) has brought up an anarchist orator named Schwartz (no first name, but the age fits) with good skills in Polish and Hungarian, but with few capabilities in the English language. This Schwartz was involved with William Wess from 1902-1905.”

Interesting stuff, Maria. Let me just say, though, that if we surmise that mr Schwartz of Berner Street fame stayed on in Britain, it would be slightly strange if he did not pick up acceptably on the language within that 14-17 year span. Many loose ends here, though!

Ben:

”(BS man) was witnessed actually attacking Elizabeth Stride, and any modern investigative force would consider the broad-shouldered man to be the vastly more probable of the two to have been the murderer.”

Absolutely correct. There is nothing in Pipemans behaviour that points him out an an aggressor in any form or shape. The dash he made in Schwartz´ footprints may well have been led on by the same thing that made Israel run: fear.

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

It's most probable that Stride was killed by Pipeman, shortly after the BS attack.

Quite the reverse, Maria.

Schwartz was witnessed actually attacking Elizabeth Stride, and any modern investigative force would consider the broad-shouldered man to be the vastly more probable of the two to have been the murderer.

All the best,
Ben

[mariab]

I hope your research into Schwartz' claims bears fruit. It is of course possible that the account was a fabrication, but if it wasn't, there can be little doubt that Stride's assailant was the broad-shouldered man he described. In which case, the argument for a complete "surprise attack" is somewhat diminished

Schwartz' story could also be PARTLY true. It's most probable that Stride was killed by Pipeman, shortly after the BS attack.

I'm not quite sure how one would do research into whether Schwartz's story was a fabrication.
The fascinating thing about the Berner Street incident is that it offers almost endless possibilities for speculation.

There might be no speculation if we manage to reinstate the evidence.
My Paris research at the Archives Nationales (in French spy reports pertaining to anarchist activity in Victorian Whitechapel) has brought up an anarchist orator named Schwartz (no first name, but the age fits) with good skills in Polish and Hungarian, but with few capabilities in the English language. This Schwartz was involved with William Wess from 1902-1905. I'm in the process of researching this further in the spy reports, followed by cross-referencing in relevant issues of Der Arbeter Fraint (which will take a few months to get translated, in a project financed by Lynn Cates). An article will follow.
Specifically, I have concrete suspicions about Le Grand's physical description (as Pipeman) having been included into Schwartz' testimony, EVEN in the case that Schwartz' testimony was indeed a fabrication. I suspect that it all had to do with the conflicts and relations between the IWEC, the WVC, and Le Grand's tendency to play both sides of the street.

[The Grave Maurice]

Some interesting ideas here. I'm not quite sure how one would do research into whether Schwartz's story was a fabrication, but I'll let that pass. It does seem unlikely that Liz would be attacked twice in succession, unless, of course, JtR witnessed her encounter with BS man, and then made his move.

The fascinating thing about the Berner Street incident is that it offers almost endless possibilities for speculation.

[Ben]

Hi Maria,

I think it was Bill Beadle who proposed in a relatively recent article that a sudden compression of the carotid artery would result in cardiac arrest, thus accounting for the presence of cachous in her hands. The implication being that she clutched them as she "arrested".

I hope your research into Schwartz' claims bears fruit. It is of course possible that the account was a fabrication, but if it wasn't, there can be little doubt that Stride's assailant was the broad-shouldered man he described. In which case, the argument for a complete "surprise attack" is somewhat diminished in value as it would ill accord with Schwartz's description of the BS/Stride encounter.

Best regards,
Ben

[Wickerman]

Hi Hunter.
Yes, I agree eyewitness accounts can be notoriously unreliable, and the stated heights, 5' 5'' as opposed to 5' 7'' - 8'' probably came from the police. Citizens rarely think in terms of feet and inches, more likely they responded to the police by saying, "a bit taller than you" ,or "a little shorter than you".

The stated build of each suspect is a little harder to accomodate, one is said to have "medium build" whereas the other had "full face & broad shoulders". Not quite the same thing.

Then there's the jacket, this pic shows what a jacket & pants in "salt & pepper" colour looks like.
Which is consistent with Lawende's man having a "grey cap".



Strange colour of jacket to go "hunting humans", don't you think?

However, Schwarts's man had a "dark" jacket & "black" cap. And given that Berner St. was more open and possibly better lighted than the Church Passage sighting by Lawende, then it might be difficult to take the position that "it was too dark to be sure" where Schwarts's man was sighted.

I think it's a tough sell to propose they were the same man.

Regards, Jon S.

[mariab]

To answer this thread's question, if Stride was a Ripper victim, in my view that would tell us that the Ripper could be more impulsive, more careless, less in control of himself than we might conclude he was during the other outdoors murders.

Unless Schwartz' testimony is a fabrication (and I'm currently researching this), I completely agree. Among else, it's our mythologizing the Ripper into some fabled “supehuman“ figure that's preventing us from solving this case. I'm pretty sure the Ripper was somewhat careless, as there was evidence that he was quite careless at Hanbury Street.