If Stride Was a Victim of JTR, What Would It Tell Us?

[Wickerman]

There is quite possibly another example of this dual perspective. Mathew Packer, described in police records as "..an elderly man".., and a reporter added that the Packers were : "both a little past the prime of life..."

In contrast with James Brown, a dock labourer. Though we have no age or description of Brown the very fact he was a dock labourer tends to suggest he was not a frail person.

Bearing this in mind, we read this observation by Philip Sugden:

(Mathew Packer) "...his man was very like the one seen by James Brown at 12:45. Both Packer and Brown described a man of about five feet seven, wearing a long dark coat, standing with a woman by the board school. The only recorded difference between them - Packer's suspect is said to have been square-built and Brown's of average build.."

So here again we have a small elderly man describing a suspect larger than himself as "rather broad shoulders", and yet James Brown describes the man "he was of average build" (D T Oct 5).

Witnesses providing descriptions based on their own size, rather than the group average?
(how would they even know what the group average was?)

Regards, Jon S.

[FrancoLoco]

Don't agree with that, Wickerman. People describe an individual in relation to the group norm, as opposed to themselves.

A 5'5 suspect would have been described in relation to what was perceived as short and tall in that country.

And I've got to disagree with that, Fleetwood. My wife is just barely 5'0" tall. I've heard her refer to people of my enormous height (err...5'6") as tall. It's something I get a laugh out of.

[Fleetwood Mac]

It's all relative though isn't it.
Any suspect at say 5' 5'' could be described as TALL to a short witness, but SHORT to a tall witness.


We never read of the heights of the witnesses, only the suspects.

Don't agree with that, Wickerman. People describe an individual in relation to the group norm, as opposed to themselves.

A 5'5 suspect would have been described in relation to what was perceived as short and tall in that country.

[Wickerman]

Back to Victorian height, didn't one of the witnesses describe a potential suspect as short at 5'6?

It's all relative though isn't it.
Any suspect at say 5' 5'' could be described as TALL to a short witness, but SHORT to a tall witness.


We never read of the heights of the witnesses, only the suspects.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Maria seems to think that we Brits are all Bob Hoskins types whereas in truth, many of us are closer to the Roger Moore model.

Fleetwood is right about the Dutch though. At six foot one, I am tallish for a Brit but felt of average height in Holland.

Best wishes,
Steve.

I'm of the Celtic variety, ancestors from Wales and Cornwall.

I'm 5'8 and broad shouldered (don't put me down as a suspect, though, 'cause I ain't got that sort of thing in me) and I'd guess that about 90% of the people I meet are taller than me, particularly in the North East where I was always the shortest among my group of mates.

Funny, a French friend of mine comments from time to time that he's never seen a group of people as big (by this he means build rather than height, and he doesn't mean fat) as the English.

It never ceases to amaze me how foreigners have an impression of England and the English that doesn't match reality. I suppose television has a lot to answer for.

Back to Victorian height, didn't one of the witnesses describe a potential suspect as short at 5'6?

[Steven Russell]

Maria seems to think that we Brits are all Bob Hoskins types whereas in truth, many of us are closer to the Roger Moore model.

Fleetwood is right about the Dutch though. At six foot one, I am tallish for a Brit but felt of average height in Holland.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Jon Guy]

Johnny Richardson, who had apparently sat on the back step of 29 Hanbury St and trimmed his boot, was in his mid 30`s and described as tall, with a pale complexion and brown moustache.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Ben, Pipeman was a bit tall for British (esp. for Victorian British). BS would have been the accomplice.

Historically speaking, there are two types of Britons.

One is of German/Scandanavian origin, the other of Celtic origin. The former being taller and slim built; the latter being smaller and stocky.

As an example, in my experience people from the North East of England are generally taller than those of the North West of England (where there is a greater incidence of Celtic ancestry).

A recent survey suggested that on average the tallest men in Europe are Dutch and the next in line were English. I think the average Dutchman is 5'11, and the average Englishman 5'10 and 1/2.

Certainly the people of the East End would have suffered from malnutrition and poor living conditions and diet, therefore stunting growth.

[curious4]

Hello Maria,
There were tall men in Victorian England and what exactly is "a british appearance"? In my experience Brits come, and always have come, in all shapes and sizes.

Regards,
C4

[mariab]

No problem Ben, that's what the boards are about.

[Ben]

Understood, Maria, and I'd respectfully disagree on both counts.

[mariab]

Ben, Pipeman was a bit tall for British (esp. for Victorian British). BS would have been the accomplice.

[Ben]

Hi Maria,

What is it, specifically, that doesn't sound Jewish or British about the Pipeman's appearance as described by Schwartz?

My observation regarding Pipeman's activity - emerging from a building and lighting his pipe - was that it doesn't seem particularly compatible with the role of an accomplice. I'd say the more probable explanation is that he had nothing to do with the broad-shouldered man.

All the best,
Ben

[mariab]

I'm not aware of any evidence that Pipeman was described as having a "Nordic" appearance.

It's all there in his physical description, Ben. Not to be politically incorrect, but Pipeman's physical description doesn't sound too British, and he definitely doesn't sound Jewish at all.

So Le Grand's "MO from other cases" was to light his pipe while an accomplice manhandled a woman?

About lighting up I don't know (although I'm looking), but he usually had an accomplish along when he attacked prostitutes with a knife.

[Ben]

Hi Maria,

I'm not aware of any evidence that Pipeman was described as having a "Nordic" appearance.

If Pipeman was Charles Le Grand, nochalantly lighting his pipe while his accomplish (BS) manhandled Stride fully fits with Le Grand's MO from other cases (for which he went to trial)

So Le Grand's "MO from other cases" was to light his pipe while an accomplice manhandled a woman?

All the best,
Ben