Folie a deux

[c.d.]

Hello (yet again) Fish. Ummm, no thread needed. I was merely giving you my expurgated version of saying I take Schwartz to be full of a certain curious substance--to wit, bovine faecal material.

Cheers.
LC

So that's how it got on the apron.

c.d.

[Scorpio]

Hi all, after reading some of these threads and getting a Schwartz isnt a very good witness vibe, i must say that i do not feel that fear affected the accuracy of Schwartz's recall of the Stride event. I would suggest that Schwartz's behaviour denotes a hardened familiararity with the rougher aspects of East End life and a degree of emotional distance from it. This " walk on by " attitude is probably well known to every detective in a tough neighbourhood.
Scorpio

[Fisherman]

**** - I should have known!

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

BS

Hello (yet again) Fish. Ummm, no thread needed. I was merely giving you my expurgated version of saying I take Schwartz to be full of a certain curious substance--to wit, bovine faecal material.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

missing hour

Hello (again) Fish. It would be lovely if you could give, merely in broad outline, a vague account of that missing hour with Liz's broad shouldered, clerkly fellow. It would greatly facilitate my understanding of your position.

Your forensic reconstruction at the end of the hour seems to me impeccable.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn C:

"As I think you are aware, I take Schwartz to be BS man."

I must have missed something here, Lynn. Could you give a shortish outline of this? Or direct me to a thread?

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

broad shoulders--not

Hello Fish. Yes indeed. As I think you are aware, I take Schwartz to be BS man. But that has NOTHING to do with broad shoulders.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Corey writes:

"Interesting veiw of it. I had always looked at fear whenever I looked at Schwartz's testimony."

Thanks, Corey! My contention is that there may have been no fear at all in them outcries, but instead discontentment and frustration.

Think of it this way: You are at a posh party amongst mostly strangers with your wife, sipping on a nice cocktail, when your wife suddenly pinches your bottom painfully hard.

What do you do? Yell at the top of your voice?

Or do you suppress your "Ouch!" as much as you can, and follow it up with a whispering "what are you DOING? Lay off, honey!"

Now, transfer this reasoning to Berner Street, and make the supposition that the man who walks up to Stride is the same man that gave her the flower and kissed her in the doorway an hour earlier. He now finds her, seemingly soliciting, and decides to drag her away with him. They exchange a couple of words:

"What are you doing, Lizzie? You cannot stand here like this!"
"Come off it, I do what I choose to"
"No, you donīt. Come here!"

He pulls, she resists, he looses his grip, and she falls. He calls out in frustration:

"Lizzie!"

Realizing that there are people around (Schwartz and Pipeman) she lowers her voice:

"No, no, no!"

Schwartz reads the frustration and anger in BS manīs face, believes that he shouted "Lipski!" and not "Lizzie", and he is frightened and takes off running, followed by Pipeman.
After that, Liz Stride gets up, and begins to tell BS man/Marshalls man/her lover off, but since she does not want to do it in public, she takes him into the yard before having a go at him. He is initially repentful, but she finishes off by telling him that they are through and turns her back on him, heading for the entrance, taking her cachous out of her pocket. He looses it and grabs her from behind, by her scarf, thus cutting of her air supply, causing her to clench the cachous in her hand. He pulls her into a backwards fall, sending her into a left hand spin towards the wall, cutting her as she falls.

The rest you know, I believe.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Lynn C:

"the story about the 3 screams depends on Schwartz not being BS man"

On Schwartz not being BS man...?

The best,
Fisherman

[corey123]

Hello Fisherman,

Interesting veiw of it. I had always looked at fear whenever I looked at Schwartz's testimony.

[lynn cates]

BS man

Hello Fish. Indeed. But the story about the 3 screams depends on Schwartz not being BS man. But this had been addressed elsewhere.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Kensei writes:

"on the point of Liz not screaming very loudly- for one thing she was an abused woman, used to being knocked around by a man (sad but true), and may have become a bit desensitized to it if we imagine her not realizing she was about to be murdered but just thinking she was being mugged or somesuch, and for another thing she may have had the wind knocked out of her when she was thrown to the ground and not been physically able to scream any louder than she did."

You forgot the cachous, Kensei: They may have pointed to a throat infection, hindering her in crying out loud!

And yes, there are possible explanations at hand for the lowered voice. But I think it should be read in combination with the fact that BS man tried to pull Stride out into the street, seemingly along with him. In that context, it suddenly becomes more plausible that they knew each other. And when we add the knowledge that Stride had had a very affectionate conversation with a man that answers to the description of BS just an hour earlier, then this conclusion is logically further strengthened. If we, finally, to all of this add that Stride had no flower on her bosom as she spoke with Marshalls man, but had had this very probable token of affection added (together with the cachous?) AFTER the stroll she took with him, as witnesses about by P C Smith, well then we do have a good deal of details on our hands that speak of a scenario with a lover (or a lover in spe) as the killer.

"Jack definitely had enough time"

That has never been disputed, Kensei. But if it supposed to function as a crucial point for the prosecution, we need to add a good deal other pretendents for the Stride killing...

The best,
Fisherman

[kensei]

Sorry, I discovered this thread a few days late. I'd just like to briefly argue if I may on the side of a true double event perpetrated by Jack the Ripper. I know it's all been said before, but first and foremost, if Shwartz's story is accurate which I feel it is, we can not take it as a given that the man assaulting Liz and the man with the pipe had anything to do with each other. Pipeman may very well have been just another observer just like Schwartz, with Schwartz only thinking he was being chased. Abberline believed this, did he not? After all, Pipeman never said a single word. Secondly, on the point of Liz not screaming very loudly- for one thing she was an abused woman, used to being knocked around by a man (sad but true), and may have become a bit desensitized to it if we imagine her not realizing she was about to be murdered but just thinking she was being mugged or somesuch, and for another thing she may have had the wind knocked out of her when she was thrown to the ground and not been physically able to scream any louder than she did.

Anyway, those are my thoughts and I have walked from Berner/Henriques Street to Mitre Square in 14 minutes so Jack definitely had enough time.

[corey123]

Hello Mike,

I believe we stand on common ground.

[The Good Michael]

Interrupted murder happens every day. Interruptions cause by fear of discovery, by sudden change of heart, by any number of reasons, have occurred and do occur. One makes a supposition that if the murderer is some kind of feral butcher, he cannot JUST kill. He must do more. Yet, how often had the killer been foiled by police beats, or had to stop his following, or change an assignation? These, too are forms of interruption.

As isolated incidents, interruptions happen very often, else the murder statistics would be much higher. Do we have a murder? Yes. Is the throat-cutting consistent with other murders? Yes. Was there enough traffic in the yard, in the house, to and from the privies, and into the yard from the street (Diemschitz)? Of course there was. Was it an interrupted murder? As likely as not.

Mike