where's Liz?

[mariab]

Fisherman,
I'd very much like to read Dave Yost's book at some point.
I know Magritte, but a pipe is more generic than human features! Even more appropriate would be to cite Sickert's painting with the double title “The Camden murder“ and “What will we do for rent?“, which totally changes the meaning of the painting.
Wescott in Examiner 1 states that Stride possibly visited a mission on Wednesday (or on Tuesday? I haven't got the time to look right now), possibly even Dr. Barbardo's mission, and that's why Dr. Barbardo might have remembered her. Obviously none of this is corroborated evidence.

Tom, nice to see that you're alive and well, and I'll definitely re-read Examiner 1 and I'll also (finally) read Examiner 2, but right now I'm so behind on some surf lit I need to read (yes, like homework!), plus it's imperative that I work out tonight – in anticipation of tomorrow's alleged increasing swell. That is, if I manage to get up from this bed and away from the computer, while eating and sipping this amazing white wine, from Spier, the farm near Stellenbosch where I went every afternoon to play with this one year old male cheetah, Choby , who got up on his hind feet, much taller than me, like we were about to dance, and put his face on my face. I was totally swepped off my feet. Now, this is what I'd call successful romancing, not offering flowers!)

[Fisherman]

I´ll have to read up, then! Mind you, we have not always agreed about what kinds of doubts are reasonable or not. But I look forward to it!

What do you make of Tanners and Lanes assertions that Liz lived with a man in Fashion Street, by the way? One of them - can´t remember which - also states that she had heard that Liz once lived in Devonshire Street.
That makes for interesting reading, I´d say!

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Beyond a reasonable doubt. Most importantly, I show that virtually all substantial arguments used by writers to implicate Kidney in the first place were mistaken or completely fabricated.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom W:

"the significant differences are one of many indicators which prove that Kidney was neither BS Man nor Stride's killer"

Got to read that piece of yours, Tom - you´ve got proof, you say? I agree that much points away from Kidney, but proof?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

"Stride was seen at the doss house on Tuesday"

I don´t think so, Tom - I think that the witness (a doorman or something like that?) was mistaken, something that was accepted by the coroner. Tanner - as you have seen - was absolutely adamant, and so was Lane.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"I can't picture Kidney saying something as distant as that to Stride"

Good point - I have the self same problem swallowing such a suggestion.

"Unless, as you say, Schwartz exaggerated the “broadshouldered“ feature out of fear, or simply to pretend to the police that his situation were dangerous."

Or, Maria, maybe the jacket had shoulderpads - it could have been that easy. But the point that an aggressive man may seem more physically intimidating than he really is, is a good one. Thing is, though, if Marshall saw the same man - and I think that he did - then he also testified to a sturdy guy.

Once again, by the way, That sketch of Kidney is - exactly, a sketch of Kidney. Ever seen Magrittes painting "Ceci, c´est nes pas une pipe"? It is a painting of a pipe with a text (in french) added, saying "This is not a pipe".
Magritte was of course right: It was not a pipe - it was a PAINTING of a pipe ...

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Fisherman,

Stride was seen at the doss house on Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. No one mentions seeing her there on Wednesday. That doesn't mean she wasn't, of course, but anything is possible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

MAria:

"She might have slept at Dr. Barnardo's mission, as Tom Wescott states in his Examiner 1 essay. Dr. Barnardo even sort of corroborated that."

I still haven´t found the time to read Toms piece, but I know that Barnardo stated that he saw Stride in the Flower & Dean doss house on Wednesday, and we have rather clear evidence refuting that, given at the inquest:

Tanner:
"She was there (the doss house) only on Thursday and Friday"

...and the coroner and Lane:

Coroner: At what time did you see her first on Thursday?
Lane: Between ten and eleven o´clock.
Coroner: Did she explain why she was coming back?
Lane: She said she had had a few words with the man she was living with.

..and, finally, the coroner, summing up:

"She alleged that she had some words with her paramour, but this he denied. The next day she called during his absence, and took away some things, but with this exception, they did not know what became of her until the following Thursday, when she made her appearance at her old quarters in Flower & Dean Street."

So no, Barnardo would not have seen her there on Wednesday evening! Dave Yost, in his excellent book on the Stride case, writes that it was not until the day of Liz´funeral that he wrote to the Times, and Yost thinks that he was simply creating a story out of his wish to help the poor people of the doss-houses. That sounds pretty compelling to me, given the fact that he referred to the wrong day in which case.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

To Fisherman:
I didn't say “eternal promise“! Hopefully I'm not THAT naive, and, as it happens, I've always found men who offer flowers suspicious, either as phonies (it's a much too generic gesture, and almost always it belongs to a “strategy“ tried out on all females he has ever approached), or, if already in a relationship, bringing the missus some flowers almost always telegraphs that Mr. has done something wrong, and the flowers are an attempt to clear his conscience! But you're totally right, especially with a streetwalker, the evening might have very well started with flowers and ended with knives. Silly of me not to see this before.
As for the "You will say everything but your prayers" witnessed by Marshall (which, by the way, as I've read in another thread on Strike, was a common expession in Victorian English), to me it TOTALLY signifies a beginner's state of courtship, with people still unfamiliar with each other. I can't picture Kidney saying something as distant as that to Stride (he would say something much more personal and aggressive, esp. if he caught her solliciting again), but I can totally imagine a random john saying "You will say anything but your prayers" to a prostitute, after she has just claimed to him “I really like the way you smell“, or “You are different than my other johns“ or something in that direction. Obviously this little phrase also contains enough disdain and hidden hostility for the sayer of this now famous quote to have been the Ripper himself!
As for the Kidney sketch, it shows enough of his shoulders, and they are definitely thin! Unless, as you say, Schwartz exaggerated the “broadshouldered“ feature out of fear, or simply to pretend to the police that his situation were dangerous. I've already posted about this possibility on this thread (I think it was the day-before-yesterday or something), and I've wondered if we have Schwartz's physical description. Schwartz might have been a tiny man, and thus “BS“ became a feature in Ripper lore!

[Tom_Wescott]

BS definitely was not Kidney, since the physical description doesn't fit at all."

Like Fisherman, I agree that we cannot use witness evidence alone to rule someone out. But the significant differences are one of many indicators which prove that Kidney was neither BS Man nor Stride's killer. But to mind mind, it's not the most compelling.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Mara writes:

"The flower was definitely a gift by some john. It could even be by the Ripper himself, who then arranged to meet Stride again, in the yard by Berner Street. In this scenario (with a pre-arranged meeting) the Ripper/the killer cannot have been BS – who surely would not have started pushing her around after having given her a flower?!"

Ah, sweet youth! There was a time, Maria, when I also believed that a loving gesture was an eternal promise, but alas ...! Surely you must realize that an evening that starts with affection and love may turn into something else before it is over, Maria?
There is even a suggestion to make, supported by the evidence, that may go to show you what COULD have happened: Marshall stated that his man said: "You will say anything but your prayers" to Stride. What if that was in response to Stride promising him not to walk the streets anymore? And what if he later found her outside Dutfeilds yard, seemingly soliciting? To me, that would present a very useful scenario, explaining how you can first affectionately buy your loved one a flower, only to, an hour later, be bitterly disappointed with her.

"BS definitely was not Kidney, since the physical description doesn't fit at all."

That holds very little water, I´m afraid. There are two possible leaks, even: You cannot be certain of how much of a likeness the sketch of Kidney gives us (and it is made from his side, so we cannot judge if he was broad-shouldered or not). Moreover, the witness description given by Schwartz, was a description given by a frightened man, seeing things on a dark street in a fleeting moment. I know of witness descriptions that have gone very much astray, Maria, and there is simply not enough in it to say for sure.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Fisherman wrote:
I think it very likely that, surmising that Liz WAS banking on sleeping in Flower & Dean that night, she would still not pay in advance, but instead keep all opportunities open and hold on to her money for the evening.
Completely agree with that, Fisherman. That's how Nichols and Chapman also proceeded in the night of their death.

Fisherman wrote:
But surely the most flagrant part of all of this is the fact that it seems quite clear - and was accepted by the coroner - that Liz and Kidney parted on Tuesday, and that we therefore have two succesive nights to account for, where we have no idea where she stayed. All we know is that Kidney says it was not with him, and the fellow lodgers state very clearly that she did not arrive at the doss house until Thursday.
So where was she? And with who?
She might have slept at Dr. Barnardo's mission, as Tom Wescott states in his Examiner 1 essay. Dr. Barnardo even sort of corroborated that.
By the way, where's Tom been this week? Perhaps away on a holiday? I hope he's fine...

[Phil H]

Would Kidney have given Liz the flower she wore? Probably not, given the mindset you think he was of, wouldn´t you say? So who did it?

Presumably and logically the man she was seeing that nigth, the man she was taking care of her appearance over, the man she was seen with kissing and cuddling by several people.

Thing is, this man tallies totally with the description of BS man, down to the "respectable appearance", the dark trousers, the height, the peaked cap, the black jacket, and the sturdy body. How do we account for that?

Many may have dressed in that way, but if BS man was Stride's killer, I don't think she was the man she had been with for most of that evening.

Well, my solution is that they looked exactly the same because they WERE the same. And if so, BS man was NOT Kidney - but the guy I prefer to call the Fashion Street man.

I wouldn't, at this stage, agree. But we could BOTH be wrong! the sum of the evidence we have is SO slender.

Kidney appearead at the inquest, and if he had been BS man, he would have stood the very obvious risk that either Schwartz or a dug up Pipeman would have appeared, sending him to the gallows.

If Kidney killed Stride he may not have had much alternative, but to brazen it out. Flight would have been an admission of guilt - and kidney had turned up early with the police telling a strange, emotional story - perhaps to try to establish an excuse along the lines of "I came to you, so I CAN'T BE YOUR MAN!"

He may have been unaware of Schwartz, and believed that Stride's "paramour" (if he was PS man, would not compromise himself by giving evidence. Equally, if he was drunk, Kidney may simply have been hazy afterwards about who was there.

Thirdly, by the time of the Inquest, all the talk was of a double-event. As I have said before, I think on this thread, so long as kidney had good alibis for the other murder-nights, he might have escaped notice.

The drawing of Kidney. A drawing is only a drawing, of course, but it does not seem to portray the kind of man BS was.

Such interpretation, as with my views of the drawing and the decription of BS man, is entirely subjective. I point again (as i have before) to the two drawings of Joe Barnett, which but for the written identification, would not be taken as being the same man.

Nor do I think that "respectable" would have been the first word connecting with Michael Kidney - he was described as a morose, rough-spoken man whereas Marshall stated that his guy sounded like an educated man.

But now you are taking the Marshall/BS descriptions as being identical. An assumption too far for me.

And we know Kidney was a waterside labourer - those are generally not known for their respectable, clerk-like appearances.

But could well be "morose, rough-spoken " and violent, and thus capable of an unpremeditated, act of passion, in killing Stride, the lover he seemed to be losing.

Please come back at me,

Phil

[Fisherman]

Caz writes:

"At least the velvet shows her intention to return at some point. And she certainly didn't say she was on a promise with her bed taken care of."

Actually, Caz, although your proposition has a lot going for it, I think that the only thing we can say about that velvet is that she did not wish to bring it along with her that night, but cherished it enough to find somebody that she knew well enough and trusted to take care of it. Apart from that - no guarantees, I´d say.
We know that Liz - as so many other women of her kind - lived the life of a vagrant to a large extent, and there is no aparent reason to think that Catherine Lane differed in any respect from that, which is why we cannot state with any certainty that the velvet would stay at the doss-house.

It is of some interest that Lane herself - if my memory serves me - stated that she was slightly amazed that Stride had not given the velvet to Tanner for keeping, and that reeks a bit of "because then she would know for sure where it was".

This is just a side remark, of course, since we may of course surmise that Liz WOULD have gone to the doss-house in the first place to look for her cloth. But we must also realize that we have no idea of how long she expected that Lane would have to keep it for her, and that means that we must allow for the possibility that she was counting on having a bed elsewhere waiting for her.

As for stating that we can know for sure that she expected to stay away from the doss-house since she did not pay in advance for her bed, that is something I agree we cannot do, just as you say. I think it very likely that, surmising that Liz WAS banking on sleeping in Flower & Dean that night, she would still not pay in advance, but instead keep all opportunities open and hold on to her money for the evening.

But surely the most flagrant part of all of this is the fact that it seems quite clear - and was accepted by the coroner - that Liz and Kidney parted on Tuesday, and that we therefore have two successive nights to account for, where we have no idea where she stayed. All we know is that Kidney says it was not with him, and the fellow lodgers state very clearly that she did not arrive at the doss house until Thursday.
So where was she? And with who?

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Hello all,
according to the evidence it doesn't appear to me at all like Stride had a new man and was planning to put up house with him, or even to sleep at his place on September 30. She left the velvet piece at her neighbour's, she sounded like she might expect to return to her dwellings (even if whe didn't pay for them for September 30), etc..
As Caz wrote:
At least the velvet shows her intention to return at some point. And she certainly didn't say she was on a promise with her bed taken care of.

Lynn Cates wrote:
I don't think "Jack" had anything to do with Liz (or Kate or MJ for that matter).
I'm not with you at all on this, Lynn. I'm assuming that by “MJ“ you mean Mary Kelly? And you believe that neither Stride nor Eddowes were the victims of JTR? I'm sorry, but this doesn't make much sense!
(...) Actually, things don't change much over the years.
As for Stride and Kelly having parted, then made up again on a regular basis, there are relationships like this , hell, I was in such a one until about a month ago (minus the physical abuse!), and I completely agree with you that, even with history and society shifting, romantic relationships haven't change too much since 1888, or even since the Rennaissance! That's why Shakespeare's Otello, the comedies by Moličre, and other works of art still speak to us so powerfully today. I believe that Kidney's ego would have been bruised by the constant fighting, but not in a dramatic fashion, but if Stride found another partner, this might have struck Kidney enough to have wanted to kill her.
On the other side, there is the case of Eddowes and Kelly, who sometimes spent nights apart from each other, in different dwellings. Still, I have a strong suspicion that Eddowes was hiding something when she so insistently decided to spent a night away from Kelly. Was there perhaps a “date“ prearranged with some well-off john, perhaps a Jew, who happened to be the Ripper? But this scenario again doesn't fit at all with Eddowes getting so drunk and disorderly, being arrested, and then meeting the Ripper just as she got released out of jail. Their meeting seems more like an accidental occurrence. As you see, the evidence is everything but helpful!

Phil H. wrote:
But this time his ego was severely bruised. He found there was another man, and it seemed to be serious. So he made enguiries and tracked her down, or followed her - saw her with this new man - a Jew, and effing Jewboy!! Now he was angry, Liz was damn well going to come home where she belonged or else...
To me this fits the evidence better than an assumption that JtR made an attack practically in the open, in a heavily frequented spot... not HIS style. But Kidney wouldn't care... he had no plans, acted on impulse, and ... fortunately for him, Jack WAS on the prowl that night, but in his usual dark and solitary places.
This makes MUCH more sense to me. The way I see it right now, I'd say the odds look to me for Stride at 60% to have been a Ripper victim, at 40% to have been killed by Kidney.

Fisherman wrote:
Would Kidney have given Liz the flower she wore? Probably not, given the mindset you think he was of, wouldn´t you say? So who did it? My guess is that Marshalls man is a very good bid - here we have a companion that stands around in a doorway with Liz, fondly speaking with her, kissing her, walking off with her, his arm around her neck. Now, that would not be Kidney, would it?
The flower was definitely a gift by some john. It could even be by the Ripper himself, who then arranged to meet Stride again, in the yard by Berner Street. In this scenario (with a pre-arranged meeting) the Ripper/the killer cannot have been BS – who surely would not have started pushing her around after having given her a flower?! Perhaps the Ripper was Pipeman, avoiding BS and coming back to meet Stride after she got rid of BS. Who knows?

Fisherman wrote:
Thing is, this man tallies totally with the description of BS man, down to the "respectable appearance", the dark trousers, the height, the peaked cap, the black jacket, and the sturdy body. How do we account for that? Well, my solution is that they looked exactly the same because they WERE the same. And if so, BS man was NOT Kidney - but the guy I prefer to call the Fashion Street man.
BS definitely was not Kidney, since the physical description doesn't fit at all. But BS might have been the Ripper, in which case we must rethink our romanticized idea of a “silent“ blitz-attacker who avoided witnesses.
As I see it, ALL of the above mentioned scenarios are fully possible: Kidney (as a scourned lover), BS (as the Ripper or as a random pimp), or Pipeman (as the Ripper) might have slayed Stride.

Caz wrote:
I have always considered that one of Emma’s attackers might have gone on to murder one or more of the subsequent Whitechapel victims, or even been the ripper himself. I retain an open mind on it today, in the absence of any evidence that it was a false conclusion. Are you coming with me on this one?

I'm with you on this, Caz. Also I have to add that this Perry Mason person doesn't sound very, well... sound! And, Caz, I hope that you'll be relieved to hear that when I was at Cape St. Francis earlier today, the local paper store featured “stationery“ with an “e“. So the South Africans seem to have gotten it right. (And I immediately thought of you when I saw the inscription!)
(Apart from this, the swell is tiny, we surfed luckluster longboard waves, and no fish encountered, but many kinds of beautiful shells and unfamiliar birds instead, big and small...)