where's Liz?

[Abby Normal]

Abby Normal writes:

"I have my doubts about Lawende seeing JtR and Eddowes-he could have seen a different couple while the real couple was already in the alley.

I beleive he is the only witness to describe a blonde man plus he never identified stride as the woman?"

You are having me a bit confused here. Are we discussing Stride or Eddowes??

If you are speaking about the latter - and I think you are - it was said that the man Lawende saw was of fair complexion and wore a fair moustache. Lawende only saw the woman from behind, and his identification rests on her clothes and height, that tallied. Amongst other things, she wore a green skirt with a flower pattern on it, and so it would seem that the identification is correct. Still does not prove that hekilled her, though - only that he was with her at Church passage a very short time before she died.

The best,
Fisherman

If you are speaking about the latter - and I think you are
Yes i meant to write Eddowes there, sorry.

it was said that the man Lawende saw was of fair complexion and wore a fair moustache.

Does not fair mean blonde? Even if it dosn't he is the only witness i think who saw a man with fair hair (other than blotchy of course).

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"Hey Fisherman, you didn't tell us what evidence you have that James Brown saw/heard someone else other than Stride."

I didn´t, did I? Well, no conclusive proof is there to refute that it was Stride, but we partly know that the man wore a coat that reached to his heels, meaning that he seems not to have been BS man, he was of average build, implicating the same, and he was 5 ft 7, once again pointing away from BS. And if Brown and Schwartz are both correct on the time, then Stride was with both Browns man and Schwartz´s ditto at the exact same time - a quarter to one.
Moreover, the woman Brown saw wore no flower to the best of his recollection, and Stride did by this hour, as testified by others.
Finally, and most importantly, Brown states that his couple stood at the corner of the Board School - which is where it was witnessed by Mortimer that a young couple stood as she was out at approximately ten to one, a couple who told Mortimer afterwards that they had not heard a sound of the killing in the yard.
So very much speaks for a case of mistaken identity on Browns behalf, methinks.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Abby Normal:

"As GM said there are/were clerks in the navy"

That was Mike pulling my leg, Abby - what Marshall said was not that the man WAS a clerk, but that he gave the appearance of being one. If navy clerks did NOT look like clerks, let´s rule them out, shall we?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Abby Normal writes:

"I have my doubts about Lawende seeing JtR and Eddowes-he could have seen a different couple while the real couple was already in the alley.

I beleive he is the only witness to describe a blonde man plus he never identified stride as the woman?"

You are having me a bit confused here. Are we discussing Stride or Eddowes??

If you are speaking about the latter - and I think you are - it was said that the man Lawende saw was of fair complexion and wore a fair moustache. Lawende only saw the woman from behind, and his identification rests on her clothes and height, that tallied. Amongst other things, she wore a green skirt with a flower pattern on it, and so it would seem that the identification is correct. Still does not prove that hekilled her, though - only that he was with her at Church passage a very short time before she died.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Abby Normal wrote:
I also find it very poignant the song Mary Kelly was singing the night of her death.
Yeah, is has some Desdemona qualities in itself (like with the Willow Song), doesn't it?! And to think that the neighbours complained about the singing, but they didn't all hear her dying (besides the questionnable cry “Oh, murder!“)...

[mariab]

Hey Fisherman, you didn't tell us what evidence you have that James Brown saw/heard someone else other than Stride.
(Do you know what the techno people say? “Bip-bip-bip...James Brown is dead"!)

Hi Abby,
The little dialogue you made up reminds me of the movie Cape Fear (the remake by Scorcese, not the original)!
Personally I can't decide between an abundance of scenarios. In some of them the Ripper is a simple labourer, someone like Barnett (or perhaps even Barnett himself!). In some other he might be slightly better off, such as Jew, or even Le Grand. But he could also have been a Jew from very modest origins, like the mysterious “Cohen“...

[Abby Normal]

Thank you so much for all the info, Fisherman. So WHY on earth would Stride have lied about Fashion Street, then? I think that Tom Wescott in his Examiner 1 piece came up with the explanation that she was trying to sell herself as better off than she truly was. Tom, can you help us out here? Explanation required?!
By the way, Fisherman, while reading the articles posted on casebook about Victorian Whitechapel, I was very surpised to find out that the Whitechapel people at the markets very much dug singing La Marseillaise and another “tune“ from a politicized French opera called La Muette de Portici (The mute girl from Portici), which was a HUGE success in the early 19th century. A production of this opera in 1830 Brussels helped start the Belgian insurrection, which eventually led to Belgium's independence from the Dutch. The “tune“ in question is the refrain of a duet, called “Mieux vaut mourir que rester miserable“ (“Better to die than to remain a miserable slave“), and it very much ressembles the Marseillaise. I find it so cool that the Whitechapel people were sensitive to this!
By the by, it's flat as a pancake here as the swell report goes at J-Bay, and I've slept for 11 hours (with interruptions)!! Cheetahs sleep for 16-18 hours a day, to conserve energy. With the exception of Choby, my cheetah-specied love-interest, who never sleeps, he's too wired for that...

The “tune“ in question is the refrain of a duet, called “Mieux vaut mourir que rester miserable“ (“Better to die than to remain a miserable slave“), and it very much ressembles the Marseillaise. I find it so cool that the Whitechapel people were sensitive to this!

Hi Maria
I also find it very poignant the song Mary Kelly was singing the night of her death.

[Abby Normal]

Abby Normal writes:

"what Lawende might have seen was JtR (BS man) ... Thoughts?"

Just the one: Lawendes man was described as a shabby looking guy, whereas the Star report tells us that Schwartz described BS as a respectabel looking man. And if BS and Marshalls man are one and the same, then he gave the appearance of a clerk, whereas Lawendes guy had a distinct sailorlike appearance.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fisherking
Thanks for the response.
As GM said there are/were clerks in the navy. Also, I have my doubts about Lawende seeing JtR and Eddowes-he could have seen a different couple while the real couple was already in the alley.

I beleive he is the only witness to describe a blonde man plus he never identified stride as the woman?

[mariab]

Thank you so much for all the info, Fisherman. So WHY on earth would Stride have lied about Fashion Street, then? I think that Tom Wescott in his Examiner 1 piece came up with the explanation that she was trying to sell herself as better off than she truly was. Tom, can you help us out here? Explanation required?!
By the way, Fisherman, while reading the articles posted on casebook about Victorian Whitechapel, I was very surprised to find out that the Whitechapel people at the markets very much dug singing La Marseillaise and another “tune“ from a politicized French opera called La Muette de Portici (The mute girl from Portici), which was a HUGE success in the early 19th century. A production of this opera in 1830 Brussels helped start the Belgian insurrection, which eventually led to Belgium's independence from the Dutch. The “tune“ in question is the refrain of a duet, called “Mieux vaut mourir que rester miserable“ (“Better to die than to remain a miserable slave“), and it very much ressembles the Marseillaise. I find it so cool that the Whitechapel people were sensitive to this!
By the by, it's flat as a pancake here as the swell report goes at J-Bay, and I've slept for 11 hours (with interruptions)!! Cheetahs sleep for 16-18 hours a day, to conserve energy. With the exception of Choby, my cheetah-specied love-interest, who never sleeps, he's too wired for that...

[Abby Normal]

To Lynn and Tom:
I agree with Tom on this, Lynn. Stride might have worked on Fashion Street AND pretended she lived there as well, to give the impression of a better social situation. It's a trick used by teenagers in many movies, if any of you has ever seen Fame or Pretty in pink, etc.. (Where a person walks up to a “fancy“, rich-looking building and pretends to search for their keys, until the person to be fooled leaves the premises.)

To Abby Normal:
Hello Aby,
I very much agree with you in a scenario where the Ripper was pretending to be a well-off john, offering “unfortunates“ goodies such as bonnets, flowers, cachous (perhaps even grapes? probably not, Tom!!). But I don't think that Stride would have needed too much persuasion or drink to have accepted to offer her favours to any man willing to pay the standard fee – her financial situation was deplorable, and she had just left the residence she shared with Kidney. Nor do I believe that any “affection“ for Kidney might have brought up any hesitation. She was used to prostituting herself during her entire relationship with Kidney. She knew it was either that, or begging at the different Swedish churches (as she also did), or starve (which she probably had also experienced in depth).
According to more experienced Ripperologists, the woman who said “Not tonight, some other night“ was apparently someone else than Stride. – Can you corroborate this, please, Fisherman? About the other couple on the streets that night? It's you who brought my attention upon this (on another thread).
As for "You would say anything but your prayers.", in my opinion this was pronounced at the initial state of the encounter. It's a seemingly benign, flirtatious joke, hiding a lot of hostility and rage inside, and it totally could have been declared by the Ripper himself. (In my opinion.)

Hi Maria


"I very much agree with you in a scenario where the Ripper was pretending to be a well-off john, offering “unfortunates“ goodies such as bonnets, flowers, cachous"

I don't think he neccessarily needed to even pretend. i think he probably was better well-off then his victims, at least a little anyway. But i don't necessarily disagree, he might have- to make him self more attractive as a john to them.

But I don't think that Stride would have needed too much persuasion or drink to have accepted to offer her favours to any man willing to pay the standard fee – her financial situation was deplorable, and she had just left the residence she shared with Kidney. Nor do I believe that any “affection“ for Kidney might have brought up any hesitation. She was used to prostituting herself during her entire relationship with Kidney. She knew it was either that, or begging at the different Swedish churches (as she also did), or starve (which she probably had also experienced in depth).

OK-you've won me over on those points, but perhaps then her fear of the WC murderer was her only reason for the reluctance. Or perhaps she sensed that this person was a potential new boyfriend and she did not want to give away the fact that she was just a prostitute to him. I think whatever the reason, there was reluctance on Strides to go straight to the alley for a quicky job.

According to more experienced Ripperologists, the woman who said “Not tonight, some other night“ was apparently someone else than Stride. – Can you corroborate this, please, Fisherman? About the other couple on the streets that night? It's you who brought my attention upon this (on another thread).

I don't think that its conclusive that James Brown saw/heard someone else other than Stride.

It's a seemingly benign, flirtatious joke, hiding a lot of hostility and rage inside, and it totally could have been declared by the Ripper himself. (In my opinion.)

I agree:

Stride: (joking)"Your not the killer are you"?

Man: (joking) "you never know, I might be"

Stride: "Well then i better say my prayers."

man "you would say anything but your prayers."

god thats creepy

[Fisherman]

You´ve got me speechless, Mike; kind of flaws my reasoning, that does

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Fisherman,

There are clerks in the navy.

Mike, just trying to muddle

[Fisherman]

Abby Normal writes:

"what Lawende might have seen was JtR (BS man) ... Thoughts?"

Just the one: Lawendes man was described as a shabby looking guy, whereas the Star report tells us that Schwartz described BS as a respectabel looking man. And if BS and Marshalls man are one and the same, then he gave the appearance of a clerk, whereas Lawendes guy had a distinct sailorlike appearance.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Maria writes:

"Then Fashion Street was not “fashionable“?"

Here´s the answer to that one, Maria:

"Fashion Street
London E1 (Spitalfields)
Thoroughfare running east-west from Brick Lane to Commercial Street. Fashion Street marks the northern boundary of the original Fossan Estate, owned by brothers Thomas and Lewis Fossan. The southern side was laid out c.1655 and it was originally known as Fossan Street, which was later corrupted to Fashion. The northern side was built by trustees of the Wheler estate in about 1669. White's Row was at one time depicted as a natural continuation of the street and was known as New Fashion Street in the 17th century.
By the late-Victorian era, Fashion Street had fallen into decline alongside other streets on the estate and was considered part of the area's worst slums, especially the south side which was connected to notorious Flower and Dean Street by a number of squalid courts and passages. There were also pubs at each end of the street; the Queen's Head on the northern corner with Commercial Street, the 'George and Guy' on the northern corner with Brick Lane and the 'Three Cranes' opposite - none of these premises are now pubs. It was also home to the Fashion Street Sphardish Synagogue in New Court which had around 80 members and closed c.1906."

So much for that, I´m afraid - it was one of the worst streets in the area, Maria. So, like I said, Stride - or anybody else - would not be bragging about her connections to Fashion Street. It would in no way brush up on her appearance, not in the least, so that was not what was going on, as suggested. And still, she told Lane and Tanner (and probably anybody who would lend her an ear) that she lived with a man in Fashion Street. This begs an answer!

By the way, thanks for the info on shoulder pads, Maria. I find it hard sometimes to get good information about the garments worn in the East end in 1888. The West end is thoroughly documented, and all the finery of the people living there has been saved for museums and such. But the conditions of the poor, everyday working class Eastender are not nearly as well documented.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

To Lynn and Fisherman:
Then Fashion Street was not “fashionable“? Obviously I know very little about Whitechapel social geography. (Ask me about Paris or Naples, that I know.) I think I got this information from Tom Wescott in Examiner 1, so it's him who should enligthen us about this/corroborate the info.
After a shower and some Paracetamol (high temperature, but not a burning fever), I'm about to loose conciousness. No idea why I'm so exhausted, since I haven't been overexerting myself. Probably the stress, the new impressions...
Goodnight from ZA and