Stride Photo #2

[Steven Russell]

Elizabeths

That's the Long and the Short of it, anyway.

Steve.

[Chris Scott]

Doh!
I am being thick!!!
Of course it cannot be the Roughead book!
Why would there be a pic of Elizabeth Short (murdered 1947) in a book published in 1939???

[Steven Russell]

Thanks, Rob.

That kills a few theories. Still, the new one is good, isn't it?

Steve.

[Chris Scott]

I strongly supect the Roughead is NOT the book we are looking for. Although the contents of the book are not on Google Books it is catalogued there and a review of the contents states that the crimes covered in the book are all Scottish (as indeed was Roughead)

"Seven Scotch crimes, from days of King James VI to the present, recounted by a distinguished crime fancier. There's good reading in these old and new cases, for the most exacting real-murder enthusiast, and the writing, if not of the modern hard-hitting school, is far above the usual run. There's an introduction by Phelps, and impressive testimonials by other authors"

The details are at:

http://books.google.com/books?id=hZ6fGQAACAAJ&dq=murder+and+more+murder&lr=&cd=1

[Rob Clack]

I feel it's from a modern book as well. The book must be after 1946 but not necessarily the "Stride" photo. When did the confirmed Stride photo become available?

Regards,

Steve.

It was around 1988.

Rob

[Stephen Thomas]

For what it's worth I reckon that this is a genuine photo of the poor lady.

Hair, eyes, eyebrows, nose, cheekbones, chin, neck, ear, bottom lip, all the same.

As is the plain white background on both photos and the fact that the scar on both photos disappears directly under the chin.

There's also an identical jink in the dress on the right shoulder.

Compare the high contrast 'new' version with the original.



Here's the

[Chris Scott]

There are two copies of the Roughead book for sale on Amazon...

http://www.amazon.com/Murder-WILLIAM-Roughead-William-Phelps/dp/B000UZWP9O

[Steven Russell]

The photo I believe would be after 1988. It's certainly after 1946 because there is a photo of Elizabeth Short on the same page.

I can't help but feel it's from a modern book.

Rob

I feel it's from a modern book as well. The book must be after 1946 but not necessarily the "Stride" photo. When did the confirmed Stride photo become available?

Regards,

Steve.

[Archaic]

Good point Rob, lol!

You are a better Sherlock than me.

The World Cat might still be the way to find this book.

Cheers,
Archaic

[Archaic]

World Catalog

Hi, Trevor.

I know very little about the book 'Murder and More Murder'; I don't even know for sure that the photo in question was taken from it- I just thought it was likely. The title was recalled as 'More Murder' which seems a bit incomplete, and in the photo the words "More Murder" are at the top of the right-hand page so I thought the words "Murder And" would fit very nicely at upper left... and when i looked it turned out there was a book of that name. That was my foray into Sherlockian deduction.

The online book-finder I like the best is called World Cat, short for World Library Catalog. It can be found at WorldCat.org. I know that universities all over America, Canada and England are linked in, so I would imagine that the ones in Wales are too. You can enter your location & see what you come up with.

By the way, you might be able to use a library even if you are not an alumni. I am an alumni of a couple of universities, which is quite handy, but if you contact the library they may give you a day-pass. They probably wouldn't let you check something out, but you can do on-site research. Then again, the schools that you are an alumni of might have an inter-library loan agreement with whomever has the book you are after; this is increasingly common. My research motto is "It never hurts to ask."

The internet has changed everything, I really recommend asking your local librarian & learning about the new resources available to all of us. I found things in Seattle that I never expected to find in so young a city- like the old book 'A System of Legal Medicine' and old medical journals. Those of you who live in older cities, especially university cities, will have extensive library systems to explore and they are the ones most likely to still hold some of the old volumes. Sometimes libraries even have older items in their storage areas that aren't out on the shelves. Librarians love to help look for obscure books, don't be afraid to ask.

Hope this helps... I still expect that a Casebook member will come along and tell us that they own the book in question.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Rob Clack]

The photo I believe would be after 1988. It's certainly after 1946 because there is a photo of Elizabeth Short on the same page.

I can't help but feel it's from a modern book.

Rob

[Steven Russell]

tnb

Dear tnb,
I apologise if my earlier post gave you the impression that I thought the "new" picture genuine. I merely meant to suggest that it was either real or a very good facsimile of Liz. I would not dream of calling you boring and I think your decision to err on the side of caution until further provenance is revealed is very wise.

I have never been to Mme. Tussaud's or The London Dungeon. Are they any good? If the new picture is a fake, I wonder how long it would take to rig up. I imagine a good waxwork would take quite some time but making up an actress with a basic resemblance to Liz less so. Can any theatrical Casebookers shed any light on this?

All the best and looking forward tremendously to the script.

Best wishes'

Steve.

[tnb]

Archaic - That's a good idea, but unfortunately I too have drawn a blank on all the libraries relatively close to me, which means pretty much 1/3 of Wales, including especially unfortunately the two I would be instantly entitled access to (one as a current student, the other as an alumnus). However, in searching I did come across a description of Roughead's book, which states it is concerned with Scottish crimes? It sounds like an interesting book, either way, I was just wondering if you have any more information on it, and whether it does indeed include the Whitechapel Murders or not?

[Archaic]

An Idea

Hi, guys.

If this photo is as i suspect from the 1939 William Roughead book 'Murder and More Murder', there might be a footnote or photo-credit that can be checked.

I would expect that there are members who have this book in their personal collection. (I bet SPE has a signed first edition, lol )
It will also be available at some libraries.

I recommend searching University Law School Libraries. They are all online these days. In my experience this kind of library holds on to the old books, whereas local libraries tend to run out of room and update constantly so routinely get rid of the older volumes.

I checked and the University of Washington Gallagher Law Library in Seattle has a copy of 'Murder & More Murder' but I won't have a chance to go there anytime soon.

However, Law School Libraries are a terrific resource; this same library is where I found 'A System of Legal Medicine' and some other old texts I was looking for.

My own best guess is that the second photo is from the 30's and represents some 'modern' murder and that its resemblance to Stride struck the author, so he decided to include it. I agree it looks very waxy and shiny but the left eye looks ever so slightly open and I doubt that a wax figure would be so carefully detailed. It is strange though...might there have been some wax reconstruction to aid in identification? Hopefully the author included some kind of footnote.

Best regards,
Archaic

[tnb]

You are quite right, Steve - I have only heard about this waxworks show anecdotally before (which hasn't stopped it getting into my script - expect it next week, btw) but having done a little more digging today you are correct, it does appear that this first attempt at cashing in on the murders was simply a case of 'grab all the dummies you can and make them look gruesome'. This would obviously rule out the possibility of anything as close as this.

It could of course be from a later waxworks show - such as Tussauds' 'horror' exhibition - which I still think could be a possibility, but I do not know if the contents of that show are already documented.

Just a word of caution - things tend to come around fairly cyclically in this case, with one book or documentary or 'find' or whatever kicking off a brief snowball effect that brings the whole thing kicking and screaming back into the limelight (and many serious researchers into temporary hibernation), and seeing as this 'new' picture has turned up at almost exactly the same time as some very questionable photographs of a young Stride (and others, apparently, although the Stride one was so awful I looked no further), from a similarly untraceable source (as it stands at this moment), I would be very cautious about taking it at face value, for want of a better term.

With respect to Steve, I remain erring on the side of caution with this, and will do so very firmly until some info about provenance is forthcoming. Call me boring if you like.