Did jack kill liz stride?

[Observer]

Very true - and if Lechmere had killed her, perhaps thirty seconds before Paul entered the stage, we could well have a pumping heart (we probably DID have), a respiration system gasping away and blood flowing freely. Remeber that she bled profusely when Neil saw her, and that the blood had not stopped running when Mizen arrived. And this in spite of her having had all the major vessels severed.

The best,
Fisherman

Even larger amounts of tosh.

A pumping heart when Paul arrived! Why did he not detect a beating heart, a gasping respiration system? I know Fish that English is not your first language, but oozing in no way reflects bleeding profusely. Neil used the term oozing.

Cross himself informed Mizen.

"She looks to me to be either dead or drunk; but for my part I think she is dead"

Mr Cross was indeed correct, Polly Nichols was quite dead.

Regards

Observer

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom. Thanks.

Whether or not one would settle for that depends on:

1. How drunk one is.

2. How much one is willing to pay.

3. Whether or not one fears venereal infection.

Obviously, not ALL was inter-femoral. Much, however, was. That is why both Polly and Kate had their thighs checked for "secretions."

Cheers.
LC

That is not why they were checked for secretions, Lynn. They were checked because liquid that goes up must come down. If the doctors suspected inter-femoral relations they would have checked the rags in the women's possessions, because the women would have wiped it off their thighs.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

IF Paul was correct that Nichols was still alive (and just to note he said quite the opposite to the press), then Cross must have slit her throat a second time, in the dark, practically in front of Paul.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Observer]

Hello Tom. Thanks.

Whether or not one would settle for that depends on:

3. Whether or not one fears venereal infection.

Obviously, not ALL was inter-femoral. Much, however, was. That is why both Polly and Kate had their thighs checked for "secretions."

Cheers.
LC

More side-stepping on display here. The question asked was in relation to the venereal disease which was in evidence in London at that time, not whether one fears venereal infection. I'd like to know where Mr Cates gets his statistics from when he states that inter-femoral intercourse was much in evidence at the time in question.

[Tom_Wescott]

He already named his source. Gay men he knows personally who learned to have sex by watching female prostitutes in the streets. God bless Lynn.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[C. F. Leon]

Getting back to Stride's murder, I have two questions that I see come up but I've never heard (or read) definite answers to:

1) I know it has been speculated that Schwartz was at the meeting/social. Has this been ruled likely or not?

2) Do we have a (preferably good, but ANY) physical description of Michael Kidney?

[C. F. Leon]

Hi Tom



Yes Tom, but Swanson's summary says "and had got as far as the gateway" whilst the Star account says "he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards however he heard the sounds of a quarrel and turned back".

So clearly at some point Schwartz drew level with the Yard, started crossing the road, and looked back. At the point where he drew level with the Yard and at the point where he looked back (on the diagonal so to speak) he could well have seen into the Yard.



How very genteel. So being pushed back into the passage (Star) or thrown down onto the footway (Swanson) has transmogrified from an assault (Anderson) through a "pulling about" (Home Office) to being moved about (Wescott). I wonder what it felt like to Liz Stride?

Technically of course, (and I stand to be corrected) assault is only the threat or threatening behaviour preceding violence, whilst as soon as physical contact is made battery is commited. Which happened here?



Dave

That's why you used to hear the term "assault and battery" used (at least in America). Threatening (assault) and the actual physical attack (battery). At some point though, apparently at least in the public mind, 'assault' changed to mean a physical attack. (I don't know when, but the change seems to have occured in the media by the '80s.)

Adding to the confusion, I've been told by several sources that the formal charge of 'assault' means again threatening, and 'hassassment' is the actual physical contact.

[lynn cates]

source

Hello Michael. Thanks.

"Non-penetrative sex was uncommon for paying customers."

Your source for this?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

research

Hello CD.

"It makes me a little uneasy that people seem to know so much about inter-femoral sex."

It's research, CD.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Looking for love in all the wrong places.

Hello Tom. Thanks.

If so, they were checking in the wrong place.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

reading

Hello (again) Tom. Not watching--reading about them.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

2 points

Hello CFL.

"1) I know it has been speculated that Schwartz was at the meeting/social. Has this been ruled likely or not?"

Depends on your faith,

"2) Do we have a (preferably good, but ANY) physical description of Michael Kidney?"

Yes. No match.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

[QUOTE=Observer;278840]Even larger amounts of tosh.

A pumping heart when Paul arrived!

Are you aware that the heart can go on pumping for many minutes after somebody has been for example hanged? Obviously not, since you think it "tosh" for it to go on pumping for the odd minute!

From the net, on hangings:

"The average time it takes for the heart to fail (because air supply has been cut off) is 3 minutes. Given the state of physical fitness - or lack thereof - it could be a slightly longer or shorter time."

You may need to read up about these things before commenting on them.

Why did he not detect a beating heart, a gasping respiration system?

He may well have felt a heartbeat - he said he felt a faint movement, Observer. And that is totally inline with the heart pumping away the way I say.

I know Fish that English is not your first language, but oozing in no way reflects bleeding profusely. Neil used the term oozing.

Please read:

"The facts are that Constable John Neil was walking down Bucks-row, Thomas-street, Whitechapel,
about a quarter to four o'clock this morning, when he discovered a woman between 35 and 40 years
of age lying at the side of the street with her throat cut right open from ear to ear, the instrument
with which the deed was done traversing the throat from left to right. The wound was about two
inches wide, and blood was flowing profusely."

(Evening News)

"The wound was about two inches wide, and blood was flowing profusely ."

(East London Advertiser)

"As Constable John Neil was walking down Buck's-row, Thomas-street, Whitechapel, about ... The wound was an inch wide, and blood was flowing profusely."

(Daily Telegraph)

"As Constable John Neil was walking down Buck's-row, Thomas-street, Whitechapel, ... The wound was about two inches wide and blood was flowing profusely."

(The Star)

Yes, Observer - what tosh indeed. And it comes from you - and it flows profusely!

Why did you not check beforehand? The inquest reports speak of oozing blood, but the paper reports were earlier and they say it bled profusely.

Plus, of course, if there was only the odd drop coming out of the wound, then it would have seized bleeding when Mizen arrived. But no, at this stage the wound oozes blood too.

Tosh, eh?

Cross himself informed Mizen.

"She looks to me to be either dead or drunk; but for my part I think she is dead"

Mr Cross was indeed correct, Polly Nichols was quite dead.

Read again - she was either dead or drunk to Lechmere´s mind. He favoured dead over drunk for some reason, but left the possibility open that she was indeed alive.
One might want to consider that he could have had a reason to lie if he was the killer. Not that it seems to have entered you equation, but still...

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

IF Paul was correct that Nichols was still alive (and just to note he said quite the opposite to the press), then Cross must have slit her throat a second time, in the dark, practically in front of Paul.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Please read my answer to Observer, Tom!

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Getting back to Stride's murder, I have two questions that I see come up but I've never heard (or read) definite answers to:

1) I know it has been speculated that Schwartz was at the meeting/social. Has this been ruled likely or not?

2) Do we have a (preferably good, but ANY) physical description of Michael Kidney?

I theorized some years ago that Schwartz was affiliated with the club and provided evidence to support this, although the evidence is by no means conclusive. Schwartz was not at the meeting that evening.

As for Kidney, yes, we have a very good likeness of him from his appearance at the inquest. He had a large moustache and could not have been BS Man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott