Did jack kill liz stride?

[DRoy]

Did Abberline say that? In any event, he'd be correct, since Schwartz, in all the fuss, failed to get BS Man's name. The description he provided did not lead to an identification, so it's correct to say that Schwartz provided no clue to anybody's identity. Except maybe Pipeman.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

Abberline did say that "...the people who alleged that they saw Jack The Ripper at one time or another that he was a man of about thirty five or forty years old. They however, state they only saw his back, and it is easy to misjudge age from a back view."

I agree about Pipeman. But if found and identified, perhaps Pipeman was able to clear things up and show it wasn't Stride or something along that line?

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

An apparent supporter of the Jewish people in my mind and the only reason police would fear some sort of backlash by the community that would give them reason to remove the graffiti.

Mike

You believe that the GSG at face value supported Jews? And that the people living in that immediate area, who were almost all Jewish, would object to it?

Huh?

I think the "in my mind" part of your statement is accurate though.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

All the witness statments matched Schwartz`s statement.
I believe this has been pointed out to you four or five times now.

Jon....really....thats what you believe?

Name 1 witness that corroborates Israel Schwartz. Someone who saw or heard anything in his statement. Just one. A single source.

There are none, and I cant believe I have to point this out to someone who feels confident writing about these crimes.

You have read the Inquest transcripts I assume, so where is your key witness?

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Last point on Israel......the only way that we could see evidence of police publicly supporting Israel Schwartz is by his appearance at the Inquest into Strides death. He wasnt there, nor was his statement entered, discussed, mentioned or presented in any shape or fashion.

Abberlines notation in a memo likely speaks of his own convictions, not the official line on the witness, and its meaningless without Israel's story being entered as evidence at the Inquest.

If you believe simply writing something in a memo makes it a reality, then you believe Ostrog could have committed the murders, something we now know was not possible. Abberline also backed Hutchinsons statement, another example of a witness who claims to have seen and heard things no-one else did. And another witness whose statement eventually was tossed on the growing heap of useless information submitted.

Cheers

[The Good Michael]

You believe that the GSG at face value supported Jews? And that the people living in that immediate area, who were almost all Jewish, would object to it?

I believe the police thought that's how the message would be taken, thereby creating more strife between Jews and gentiles. An anti-Jew message would not have been anything new and would not have created a reason to remove the writing.

Mike

[Investigator]

[QUOTE=Michael W Richards;281982]Name 1 witness that corroborates Israel Schwartz. Someone who saw or heard anything in his statement. Just one. A single source.

There are none, and I cant believe I have to point this out to someone who feels confident writing about these crimes.

You have read the Inquest transcripts I assume, so where is your key witness?

Hello All, A well rounded debate on the issue of Strides murder, thought I'd make a relevant observation.
An Echo journalist reported a conversation with the secretary of the IWMEC that supports the Kozebrodsky version of timing; ”... the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, ... The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made (that a delay) was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be (brought) from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation.” The Echo 1 Oct. 1888

Should this report be correct, “the secretary” presumably Wess, is implying that the murder was discovered at 12.45 and not at 1.00 am as stated by Diemshitz. This is consistent with evidence of other witnesses supporting the contention that Stride’s body was discovered at around 12:45.
It is possible that the man being pursued may have been Elisabeth’s male companion or perhaps Schwartz. If it was someone else, then did the Police know of this? Also how did Wess hear that the fleeing man had escaped and who provided the information? Irrespective of the identities of these men, this event must have been observed by someone belonging to the IWMEC and presumably made known to the Police. Perhaps the "key witness" was hiding behind the stage of the club rooms!
Regards DG

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom,

Abberline did say that "...the people who alleged that they saw Jack The Ripper at one time or another that he was a man of about thirty five or forty years old. They however, state they only saw his back, and it is easy to misjudge age from a back view."

I agree about Pipeman. But if found and identified, perhaps Pipeman was able to clear things up and show it wasn't Stride or something along that line?

Cheers
DRoy

I'm pretty sure the woman was Stride any way it went, but it's possible he cleared himself as possibly BS Man, though the latter seems unlikely.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

...the only way that we could see evidence of police publicly supporting Israel Schwartz is by his appearance at the Inquest into Strides death.

That is incorrect. An inquest is conducted by the coroner, not by the police.

Abberlines notation in a memo likely speaks of his own convictions, not the official line on the witness, and its meaningless without Israel's story being entered as evidence at the Inquest.

That is also incorrect.

If you believe simply writing something in a memo makes it a reality, then you believe Ostrog could have committed the murders, something we now know was not possible. Abberline also backed Hutchinsons statement, another example of a witness who claims to have seen and heard things no-one else did. And another witness whose statement eventually was tossed on the growing heap of useless information submitted.

If you are referring to Macnaghten here, as opposed to Abberline, there is a world of difference between the two and the roles they played in the ongoing investigation - which was no role for Macnaghten until June 1889, and even then as an assistant chief constable, not as an investigating detective who actually interrogated witnesses and suspects and directly controlled other detectives under him.

[Jon Guy]

Name 1 witness that corroborates Israel Schwartz.

Here`s 5 from the inquest plus Mrs Mortimer:

William Wess
Morris Eagle
Louis Diemschutz
PC Smith
Philip Krantz
and
Fanny Mortimer

None of the above saw Schwartz, BS Man, or Stride standing alone by the gates.
Which tallies with Schwartz`s account that only the three and the close-by Pipeman were about the Club at that time.

[Jon Guy]

Should this report be correct, “the secretary” presumably Wess, is implying that the murder was discovered at 12.45 and not at 1.00 am as stated by Diemshitz. This is consistent with evidence of other witnesses supporting the contention that Stride’s body was discovered at around 12:45.

Thank you for posting the newspaper snippet, Investigator. Another pointer that Schwartz may have been telling the truth.
There can be no doubt as to when the body was discovered, as Diemschutz noticed the time, 1am, in a shop window as he turned into Berner St

. Perhaps the "key witness" was hiding behind the stage of the club rooms!
Regards DG

A policeman searching the premises soon after the murder did come across a club member behind the stage !!

[Michael W Richards]

Here`s 5 from the inquest plus Mrs Mortimer:

William Wess
Morris Eagle
Louis Diemschutz
PC Smith
Philip Krantz
and
Fanny Mortimer

None of the above saw Schwartz, BS Man, or Stride standing alone by the gates.
Which tallies with Schwartz`s account that only the three and the close-by Pipeman were about the Club at that time.

You intend to put forward that Israel is corroborated by the fact that no one sees or hears anything of BSM or Pipeman or the alledged altercation? Even when we have a witness in the next street who would have had to have seen Schwartz had he been "fleeing incontinently" based on the timing of the story?

Jon.......................IF Israel had told the truth Liz would have been outside the gates at 12:45...5 minutes after Eagle passed that same spot. He saw no-one...supposedly. Although he couldn't be certain that a body was not there when he entered the passageway.

I don't care what you believe personally Jon, but please don't post that Israel was corroborated in any way shape or form again....its patently incorrect.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hunter: That is incorrect. An inquest is conducted by the coroner, not by the police.
Since when did I say they conducted the Inquest Hunter? Where do you think all the evidence presented came from....elves?

And as for the rest of the comments, presenting evidence that appears in Police memos as actual fact is nonsense, as illustrated by my example.

That goes double for "support of Schwartz", since its clear to almost everyone apparently that he didn't appear at the Inquest, wasn't asked, and he didn't have his story entered as evidence at all.

What people prefer to believe and what is on the table as evidence are not the same thing. Never have been.

How about before you suggest someone has made an error you review the facts first.

Cheers

[Jon Guy]

You intend to put forward that Israel is corroborated by the fact that no one sees or hears anything of BSM or Pipeman or the alledged altercation?

Yes.
Simply put, no-one else saw Schwartz and Schwartz saw no-one else

Even when we have a witness in the next street who would have had to have seen Schwartz had he been "fleeing incontinently" based on the timing of the story?

Who is this witness please, Mike ?

IF Israel had told the truth Liz would have been outside the gates at 12:45...5 minutes after Eagle passed that same spot. He saw no-one...supposedly. Although he couldn't be certain that a body was not there when he entered the passageway.

Yes, apparently she was there 5 mins after Eagle had passed by.

I don't care what you believe personally Jon, but please don't post that Israel was corroborated in any way shape or form again..

I didn`t post it on a whim, Michael. It was in response to your ill thought out statement that, "Unless of course someone elses story matched some of Israels. None did."

...its patently incorrect.

.... in your opinion.

[Hunter]

Hunter: That is incorrect. An inquest is conducted by the coroner, not by the police.
Since when did I say they conducted the Inquest Hunter? Where do you think all the evidence presented came from....elves?

And as for the rest of the comments, presenting evidence that appears in Police memos as actual fact is nonsense, as illustrated by my example.

That goes double for "support of Schwartz", since its clear to almost everyone apparently that he didn't appear at the Inquest, wasn't asked, and he didn't have his story entered as evidence at all.

What people prefer to believe and what is on the table as evidence are not the same thing. Never have been.

How about before you suggest someone has made an error you review the facts first.

The ignorance about the police and their investigation - and the role and function of the coroner's office - that is prevalent in much of Ripperology no longer surprises me.

Agendas come first. Historical study comes after.

If you believe I have not made a proper and objective study of this, then you will not want to read the next issue of RIP.

By the way though, just a little historical background pertaining to your claim that there's only Abberline's personal opinion regarding Israel Schwartz. Are you familiar with the Police Gazette? It was first published in 1772 and was also known as the Hue and Cry - its purpose, as it indicated in its title, being to alert various law enforcement and constabulary about criminals and post rewards. It was printed at Bow Street until Howard Vincent (you do know who he was?) revamped it during his term as director of CID and moved it to Scotland Yard. It operated under the auspices of the Home Office. The Oct. 19, 1888 edition carried the description provided by Schwartz of the man he alleged accosted the woman near the passageway of Dutfield's Yard.

The Police Gazette was not owned or controlled by Frederick Abberline.

[DRoy]

The Oct. 19, 1888 edition carried the description provided by Schwartz of the man he alleged accosted the woman near the passageway of Dutfield's Yard.

Hunter,

I find it interesting that they didn't give the description of Pipeman as well. It could mean that he was identified as has been suggested by some. Wouldn't they have included that description even as a person of interest to the police if he wasn't identified?

Cheers
DRoy