saving Liz Stride

[Observer]

Hi Lynn

I'd take the word of the policeman who shut the gate above the rest of the witnesses, he stating that it just cleared her feet. Looking at the photo, and illustrations of the scene, I'd also go along with the assertion that the entrance was 9 feet in width.

But when all said and done does it make a lot of difference whether she lay 4 feet six inches into the yard or 9 feet? It dosn't say a lot to me, the differences in position of the body that is, because I believe that she walked into the yard with her killer.

I am becoming more convinced that Schwartz was telling a little white lie when he spoke of the man assaulting Liz Stride. I do believe he saw the couple, but rather than being assaulted, I believe the man was merely talking to Liz Stride as Schwartz walked by. Schwartz learns of the murder the next day, and rather dramatically added on a few details by himslef. It was a Jack the Ripper murder after all, so Schwartz painted the picture accordingly.

If this is the case the supporting evidence would make much more sense, the cachous etc.

Two things which don't sit quite right are the Lipski reference, and the Pipeman. Could Schwartz have made those two incidents up? They have the ring of truth for me. It could well be that the couple were merely talking, and as Scwartz walked by, he showed a little too much interest, and the man with Stride rebuked him with the insult "Lipski".

Pipeman is harder to explain, for he ran after Schwartz. It could well be though that he was merely a fixed observer, and didn't actually chase Schwartz.

all the best

Observer

[lynn cates]

satori

Hello Observer. I think I see your point.

1. One witness said 9 feet. That's a mistake.

2. Another said 6-7 feet. He was merely guessing.

3. Another said 5 feet. He's just right.

Would it be wrong to admit there is a discrepancy and suspend judgment?

The best.
LC

[Observer]

Hey I hit a m instead of a n, big deal, I don't need you to tell me that, nor when I miss an apostrophe. Who is a trained observer? And what did he state? I'm in the dark here. And it's got nothing to do what I say, witnesses stated that the swing of the gate only just cleared her feet. They had a measure, (that is, the width of the gate) to determine the distance, in my mind an infallible and precise measure.

all the best

Observer

[lynn cates]

testimony

Hello Observer.

"There is witness testimo[n]y that when they closed the right hand gate it only just cleared Liz Stride[']s feet"

Well, if YOU say so. But there is also witness testimony that it was 9'--and he was a trained observer. (His testimony is VERY precise, I might add.)

The best.
LC

[Observer]

Hi Lynn, Forget Eagle he's guessing. One more time, the yard entrance was 9feet wide, each gate was half that in width, so 4 feet 6 inches. There is witness testimomy that when they closed the right hand gate it only just cleared Liz Strides feet, therefore she lay 4 and a half feet into the yard, facing the club wall with her knees virtually touching the wall.

all the best

Observer

The distance her feet would be from the gate would depend entirely on the angle the gate was at. We know they swung inward, and as per Phillip, Toms right about the gates width, the gates themselves can be no more than 4 feet and some change each. Exactly how far her boot was is related to an unknown factor, the angle of the gate.

Blackwell described the action of the killer as being from behind the victim, grabbing her by the scarf, twisting it to the left, his POV...which has her roughly facing the wall and bent awkwardly to remain standing. He cuts and drops and thats the end of Ms C3. The fraying on the scarf matched exactly the line of the cut under her chin.

She dies as she fell, and so her last standing position should have her facing the wall to some degree, likely twisted to face that way by the killers manipulation of the tightened scarf.

That means he most probably gets her from inside the yard as she is poised to exit it. He is nearer the open and ajar door that lead to the kitchen and downstairs rooms, not her. Its not impossible that she never saw him at all if thats the case.

Best regards

[lynn cates]

Eagle eyed

Hello Chaps. Here's Morris Eagle:

"Her feet were towards the gates, about six or seven feet from them. She was lying by the side of and facing the club wall."

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

photo

Hello Observer. Very well. But:

1. What changes have occurred over the years there?

2. What will the photo tell me?

Surely the quoted 18' length is correct?

The best.
LC

[Observer]

Hi Lynn, at least have a look at that Photograph, and the illustrations.

all the best

Observer

[lynn cates]

poking about

Hello Tom and Observer. I shall poke about and see.

The best.
LC

[Observer]

As I said there is witness testimony which states that when they closed the gates, the right hand gate only just cleared her feet. Each gate was four and a half feet in width, therefore her feet lay four and a half feet into the yard.

all the best

Observer

[Tom_Wescott]

Lynn,

What I'm trying to tell you is that there's no debate about where Liz was found. She was found precisely where I said she was. Read the inquest testimony of EVERYONE and from different papers, and the police file, etc and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Thanks

Hello Observer. Thanks for that. I wonder then how the photo can help us determine where Liz was found?

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Tom. Even though we may disagree about the distance of Liz's feet from the gates, I think at least we can see the other person's point of view. If Liz died near the gates, many forensics difficulties vanish. However, if she died 9 feet away, I think you can see why I had a problem. So I am not merely trying to be obtuse or blinded.

Thanks for the gentlemanly discussion. I think it accomplishes a good deal.

The best.
LC

[Observer]

No Lynn, there is no photograph of Liz Stride, lying in the yard. There is a photograph of Berner Street looking North it shows the corner of Berner Street and Fairclough Street, and a few doors up from the corner is Dutfields Yard, it's here in the Casebook Photo archive. There is also an illustration from the Illustrated Police News, this is a contemporary illustration, and shows the crowds who flocked to Berner Street shortly after the murder, it shows the double gates clearly.

all the best

Observer