saving Liz Stride

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Someone killed her indeed. If being killed produces a killing spot, very well. But there was nothing particularly conducive to killing there.

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Methinks I detect an anti-Jack sentiment here. It might not have been a particularly good spot for a killing but that has to hold true no matter who killed Liz, Jack or someone else.

And if you want to point the finger at the BS man, he went on to kill in that location after being seen by two witnesses one of whom ran off presumably to find the nearest PC.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Icarus,

Welcome to the boards. Your question is a good one. If you go back and read through the posts on this thread, I discussed the cachous at length in post no. 83. My belief is that the cachous tell us that the BS man was not her killer. It seems much more likely that she would have taken out the cachous with a client. To me, that points to Jack.

c.d.

[Icarus]

I believe that the killer would have greatly preferred to get Liz in a safer and more private place before attacking her, but that his efforts to relocate her failed. Liz was not cooperating; by this point she was probably either trying to leave or attempting enter the club. Then they heard Diemschutz approaching and the killer had to either act fast or give up. Rather than admit utter defeat and run away, he blitzed her right where she was.

If Liz was feeling threatened or uncomfortable, why would she have taken out the Cachous to, I presume, freshen her breath? I agree with everything you said about why that location, I'm just (a newbie being) curious about that one point.

[harry]

No one neccessarily had to come from the yard behind Stride as she faced the street.If she was stood with a person with whom she felt safe,all that person had to do was make an excuse to go into the yard("I want to urinate")for example,and as soon as he was behind her,grap the scarf.Then half carry half drag her to where she was found.

[Archaic]

re: Why Was She Killed In That Location?

Archie, thank you for your investigation into the clinching of the hands which accompanies death.

You're very welcome, Roy.

I agree with what several of you have said, which is that the spot in which the killer attacked Liz seems an odd choice.
It's particularly puzzling because he would have had much more safety and privacy if he had gone just a little further back in the yard.

I've often wondered if Liz's killer had intended to lure her deeper into Dutfield's Yard, but finally killed her fairly close to the gate because she was resisting all his efforts to make her go where he wanted.

> If the killer had succeeded in luring Liz into the back of Dutfield's yard he would have had significantly more opportunity to
do whatever it was that he wanted to do to her.

Personally, I believe he would have liked to murder and mutilate her, and manuevering her deeper into the yard was the obvious choice for that.
Her ravaged body would have been found when the meeting broke up, creating a scene as horrific as the murder of Annie Chapman- maybe even worse, if he'd been able to spend a bit more time.

Alternatative Scenarios: For those of you who feel that Liz was killed by someone she knew, perhaps an angry pimp or a jealous boyfriend, I still feel that it would have been in their best interest to do it farther back in the yard.
For example, an assailant of this sort may have wanted to "teach her a lesson" and extract some sort of personal revenge by cruelly showing Liz the knife and prolonging her terror before actually killing her. Once he struck, he may have wanted to vent his pent-up anger on her by repeated stabbings.

Conversely, a pimp or a boyfriend may have actually intended to "scare her into obedience" by threatening her with the knife, which he couldn't safely do so close to the gate. It's even possible that if he had succeeded in threatening her in this way a fearful Liz might have acquiesced to his wishes, and then he might not have felt that he "had" to kill her.

I believe that the killer would have greatly preferred to get Liz in a safer and more private place before attacking her, but that his efforts to relocate her failed. Liz was not cooperating; by this point she was probably either trying to leave or attempting enter the club. Then they heard Diemschutz approaching and the killer had to either act fast or give up. Rather than admit utter defeat and run away, he blitzed her right where she was.

He was probably hoping that the pony-cart would pass by the gate at the last second and that he could at least vent his frustration by stabbing her some more before he fled the scene.

Poor Liz; there's a good chance she refused to go anywhere with this man because she was afraid of
becoming another victim of the Whitechapel Murderer.

Best regards, Archaic

[lynn cates]

killing spot

Hello CD. Someone killed her indeed. If being killed produces a killing spot, very well. But there was nothing particularly conducive to killing there.

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Roy.

"plenty of killing spots, like the yard where Liz was murdered"

What better place than next a club with a big party going on?

Thanks for all the information.

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I think that we can all agree that someone killed her there party and all.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

yard

Hello Roy.

"plenty of killing spots, like the yard where Liz was murdered"

What better place than next a club with a big party going on?

Thanks for all the information.

The best.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

The pimp

Hi Lynn,

Elizabeth Stride didn't have a pimp. She was one of the unfortunates. The down on their luck, middle aged women, bless their hearts, rode hard and put up wet, who were living in the rookeries of Spitalfields and Dorset St. In fact, Dr. Barnardo went to visit some of them and they expressed their fears to him about the murder spree targeting them. He later said he believed that Liz was in that group. She was killed shortly thereafter.

This group of near destitute women, who nightly hit the streets to solicit, panhandle and whatever, were chosen as the victims of the serial killer who came to be known as Jack the Ripper. He picked an area where there were a number of these defenseless victims, and plenty of killing spots, like the yard where Liz was murdered.

I don't know if you guys are writing a soap opera, a episode of Kojak, or just what.

ps Archie, thank you for your investigation into the clinching of the hands which accompanies death.

Roy

[curious]

Hello Curious.

"I hadn't really thought of Packer as a suspect. It appeared to me his story was influenced. What's your take on that?"

I think he was influenced by what he believed SY wanted to hear.

The best.
LC

you don't think LeGrand and the other outside detective put ideas into his head?

curious

[lynn cates]

PM and BSM

Hello Mike.

"Thats not how I envision Jack the Ripper by any stretch thread-wise, its far too visible aggression he is showing...but it could address Israels story."

Right. The pimp could be PM or BSM or both. But it leaves Jack untouched.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

short temper

Hello CD.

"Much better to slap her around to get your point across."

Indeed, it is. But some people have violent tempers and they act before thinking.

Possibly here?

The best.
LC

Thinking about this a little, a pimp isnt a bad bet for BSM at all, the way he manhandles her its as if he knew her well or felt he had some right to take her anywhere he wants to.

Thats not how I envision Jack the Ripper by any stretch thread-wise, its far too visible aggression he is showing...but it could address Israels story.

If...his story is valid....and I think the jury should still be out on that one.

Ill stand by the theory that Israel was affiliated with the Club or an attendee that night until proven incorrect....because it makes infinitely more sense to have him leaving a Jewish Mens Club shortly after a meeting broke up than it does for him to be checking to see if his wife has moved the few meager belongings they would own to their new digs.....12 hours earlier. The "move" may well have been 1 or 2 trips.

Cheers mates

Hi Lynn,

Well then her pimp wasn't very smart. Why kill someone who is giving you money? Much better to slap her around to get your point across.

c.d.

Maybe she hadnt been giving him his cut...maybe she was working for someone else, or considering it...maybe the pimp has affection for her and is jealous....

Best regards mate

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Well then her pimp wasn't very smart. Why kill someone who is giving you money? Much better to slap her around to get your point across.

c.d.