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The Knife

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Hi cd,

    Im going to go out on a limb here and suggest that there was no way based on that single cut for the doctor to suggest that the knife that was used on Stride was pointed. In one comment on the matter I recall reading the blade was "laid across her throat"....she wasnt stabbed with it, the point, or the lack of one, wouldnt be discernible.

    Since Polly Nichols certainly had punctures as well as slits they could gauge that question more accurately, and I dont think that kind of knife is out of the question either, I just dont believe he had enough information with that single wound to discount the possibility that the knife had a round tip.

    The question of Liz's sobriety on a Saturday night near 1am, while out and about and in and out of the company of men, after she worked that afternoon and made enough money to secure her bed and then go soliciting and drinking if she wanted.....is a good one.

    Why would Liz, perhaps intentionally, be staying sober? Good evening wear, requested a brush to tidy her skirt before leaving, she hands off her velvet swatch, at some point acquires flowers for her jacket...and there she is looking likely as presentable as she is capable of looking, even cachous in case her breath might ruin the effect....just hanging around a Mens Club that had a meeting at it end over an hour earlier and now had some russian jews singing upstairs.

    No-one else on the street, no-one else in the yard, just Long Liz, a flower, some mints, and yet...........perhaps some anticipation?

    Cheers cd
    Last edited by perrymason; 12-02-2009, 12:54 AM.

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  • c.d.
    replied
    Strange that no alcohol was found in Liz's system. We know that she liked to bend the elbow and I assume that her male companions would have picked up the tab.

    c.d.

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  • c.d.
    replied
    Hi Michael,

    Liz and the whole knife thing is indeed confusing. Sugden does a good job of sorting out fact from fiction. On page 211 he states..."Dr. Llewellyn, who carried out the post-mortem examination of Polly Nichols, thought that her injuries had been inflicted, not with an exceptionally long-bladed knife, but with a pointed one that had a stout back, perhaps a cork-cutter's or shoemaker's knife. This appears to have been just such a weapon as was later used upon Elizabeth Stride."

    ...[T]here must always be an element of doubt about the Stride case. On the evidence as it now stands, however, it seems probable that she was indeed struck down by the slayer of Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman.The case for discounting Elizabeth as a Ripper victim is not as weighty as it first appears."

    c.d.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    ...........And what Lynn points out regarding Killeen's impressions is best understood within a proposed scenario involving 2 men. Meaning, even if Jack were one of those 2 men theres no reason to assume that he would use a different knife for later kills.....unless of course, Jack was the one that used the bayonet......something tells me thats highly unlikely. And I believe there is no real logic involved in supposition that the same man used both instruments, since the wounds made by them are so disproportionate in number. Its hard to imagine that a man incensed to the point of furiously stabbing away 38 times would suddenly be calm enough to inflict only a single wound with the larger weapon.

    The probable facts are that the knife that was used on women who are part of the Canonical Group may well have been the same type, even the same blade,..... but the knife with the rounded tip found after the Double Event could likely have only killed one woman within that Group. Liz Stride.

    Although the rounded tip is impractical for the other murders, as is the length, that type of blade might well be found in a Mens Club kitchen,....which was accessible via the side door which was ajar...and might well have been the type used to slide under Liz's chin as she is being dropped.

    It would be totally impractical for the mutilations and extractions.....yet,... it may have been the knife used on Liz.

    How does that rate on the "Was it Jack that killed Liz" scale?

    Best regards all

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  • lynn cates
    replied
    wounds

    Hello Curious. There seems to be some broad consensus that Martha Tabram was stabbed by 2 different weapons. Dr. Killeen opined that 38 wounds could have been inflicted with something small like a pen knife. One wound, however, seemed to be done by a bayonet or other larger weapon.

    The best.
    LC

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  • curious
    replied
    Originally posted by KatBradshaw View Post
    Thanks very much for your replies.
    The reason I have asked is becuase of my belief that the knife of a killer such as JtR has such an important signficance that I cannot see him using a different one to kill different victims.
    Now I know that if we were to compare JtR to the Yorkshire Ripper we do seem him using a variety of weapons such as hammer and chisle so that may blow a hole in my own arguement.
    I do see the knife as an extention of his, er, member. And as I said to people at the conference I can't see a man usuing someone elses, er, member, to complete the deed.
    Weren't two different knives used on Martha Tabrum? Of course, she's not one of the 5.

    curious

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  • sleekviper
    replied
    ok..thanks

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  • lynn cates
    replied
    maybe

    Hello CD. Perhaps she did. I wonder if she had the stomach to use it?

    I suppose it's a moot point given the purported swiftness of her demise.

    The best.
    LC

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  • lynn cates
    replied
    final disposition

    Hello Viper. Unfortunately, I am unaware of the final disposition of the knife. Perhaps it was returned to its owner?

    The best.
    LC

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  • c.d.
    replied
    Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
    Hello Kat. I should think it unlikely that Liz carried a knife.

    But the other suggestion seems just a given. The knife that killed Liz was short and rounded--not long and thin. If you have the A-Z you may wish to have a go at the article on Liz.

    I hope this tiny snippet is useful.

    The best.
    LC
    Hi Lynn,

    I don't find it unlikely at all that Liz might have carried a knife. Rough neighborhoods, rough customers and knives were cheap and easy to come by.

    c.d.

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  • sleekviper
    replied
    Actually Kat, do not give up on all that thought. If that knife can be seen, or atleast the makers stamp looked into, you still maybe partially right. That is not the set of knives that Jack would have used, it would have been a second set, if the person is who I think, and that was a large catlin. Few people would have had both these sets, and Jack is one of them. Man, I could be right.

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  • sleekviper
    replied
    Oh No

    Hello Lynn!
    Thank you for the reply. It really wouldn't matter if that was the knife used at the time to kill Stride, what matters is what they happened to do with it. If it is what we all would hope that it is, they found a catlin. The blunt end of the blade is important, it is part of a set...a set that can be dated, and tell a lot about the person using it. If the shape of the blades match the rest of the description, it sounds like a c.1840 J. H. Gemig catlin, and Jack would have had three other knifes from the set. It would be a surgical set used for amputation. Do we know what happened to that knife, or if anyone wrote down the makers stamp from the blade?

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  • KatBradshaw
    replied
    Thanks very much for your replies.
    The reason I have asked is becuase of my belief that the knife of a killer such as JtR has such an important signficance that I cannot see him using a different one to kill different victims.
    Now I know that if we were to compare JtR to the Yorkshire Ripper we do seem him using a variety of weapons such as hammer and chisle so that may blow a hole in my own arguement.
    I do see the knife as an extention of his, er, member. And as I said to people at the conference I can't see a man usuing someone elses, er, member, to complete the deed.

    Leave a comment:


  • lynn cates
    replied
    A-Z

    Hello Viper. Well, the A-Z has it as a 9-10" dagger like knife. The coroner's report indicates it is not likely the instrument that did in Liz.

    Cheers.
    LC

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  • sleekviper
    replied
    Hello Lynn!
    The bloody knife that Coram found...did he find a catlin?

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