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The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

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  • #31
    your theory is interesting, but you're moving too far into the realms of speculation...........but i guess that we're all guilty of this.


    • #32
      Originally posted by The Good Michael View Post
      I think I addressed this in a long-winded way. I think an organization would have spokespersons who would do all the talking.
      But weren't the several witnesses interviewed by police at the time, Mike? The inevitable inconsistencies ought to have been apparent right away.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        But weren't the several witnesses interviewed by police at the time, Mike? The inevitable inconsistencies ought to have been apparent right away.

        True, but if only a few were allowed to talk, or to pretend they could speak English, it would alleviate some of those issues. It wouldn't take but a minute for (for example) Wess to understand the situation and to decide who the speakers would be. Again, it may have been just about telling exactly what they knew and not about what they thought the possibilities were. It was just information control with regards to club activity, and I suggest they had done this sort of thing before, though not with a recent corpse involved.




        • #34
          As Mike suggested Sam, hard is it to say nothing? Its not like the story was complicated at all....if there was any story like the one that I'm in the yard, no-one saw anything....for most of them that was probably the truth anyway in my scenario....our scenario for those who entertain it like Mike.

          And language may well have helped facilitate that.

          We have all embraced a story for years that leaves Liz with BSM at 12:46am, and picks her up again, now dying, at 1:00am. That seems to have been enough for most everyone cause thats all that is on Schwartz's case, he gets witness credentials without giving his very important and apparently believed story to the Inquest jury.

          That time gap IS the whole story....weve been dealing with everything but her actual murder.

          Its not like there is no answer....its just that the one we have been settling for definitely is not one. We are missing the most important part.

          Best regards gents and Happy Easter.


          • #35
            Originally posted by perrymason View Post
            As Mike suggested Sam, hard is it to say nothing?
            But they didn't say nothing, as such, Mike. The police and press took down the stories of several club members - this doesn't strike me as being in the least bit non-cooperative, taciturn, or "working to rule".
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)


            • #36
              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              But they didn't say nothing, as such, Mike. The police and press took down the stories of several club members - this doesn't strike me as being in the least bit non-cooperative, taciturn, or "working to rule".
              Of the Club members who had anything to say that we are aware of.....Diemshutz, Kozebrodski, Eagle, Lave and Mrs Diemshutz are the only ones who would potentially need to tailor the facts to enable the "whitewash", the remaining men on site and the cottagers need only say they saw or heard nothing...which I believe is the essence of their statements.

              Goldstein doesnt come into the station until Tuesday, so plenty of time for him to be told to say he heard and saw nothing, which is what he says...and Schwartz is not a proven member of the club, but his story is actually in their benefit, so if he was coerced or not, he cant hurt them with his remarks. And since he wasnt even deemed a proper witness and introduced at the Inquest with his story...his participation in a cover-up might even have been considered at that time by the authorities.

              We are not talking about them making up a murder story....just tailoring their witness accounts to suggest that no member/attendee could have done this. Empty yard, no sound, no witnesses.

              Best regards Sam


              • #37

                If I may jump in here... So long as Diemschutz was the first to know of what happened, and other members were oblivious, being in their cups, and dancing and whatnot, it may have been standard procedure at the club to bring any suspect behavior or problem to the attention of Wess or Eagle first and allow them to make decisions. It's wuite probable, and the club members' stories bear this out, that the majority knew nothing, so saying nothing was quite easy. I don't have any real answers, but what I have is the idea that some sort damage control would have been important to the existence and continued security of such an organization as the Berner Street Club, especially because they were businessmen and socialists, and anarchists. Without some sort of system, the club couldn't have lasted too long, in my opinion. Remember, I'm not pointing to any sort of a-member-was-the-ripper idea here (though it's possible), but rather, to an immediate attempt to stabilize a bad situation.




                • #38
                  I think if a murder just like this was discovered in the yard of a Biker Clubhouse it would be no surprise to discover that any witnesses that were there at the time saw nothing and heard nothing. Barring an outside witness to dispute that claim.

                  No one in this Stride case could be disputed based solely on their story in that same way.

                  I see anarchists and modern bikers share at least anti-social and anti-authority attitudes, and in the same way early Union formation was the result of violence and intimidation, my bet is that men were employed to be strong arms at rallies and meetings.

                  I think such a man might be the cuplrit here....and if BSM existed, he would be a suitable candidate based on the broadshoulders and the way he may have manhandled a woman.

                  Best regards.


                  • #39
                    Hey Mike,

                    You think Hutchinson could have been named Hutchinberg or something similar? He's been accused of so much, I suspect he could have been involved here too.




                    • #40
                      This is odd. An essay I've worked off and on with for the last couple of years happens to be called 'The Berner Street Conspirary'. Maybe it's not so odd since 90% of Michael's ideas originated from posts I made here back in '06 or '07. I wonder now if I shouldn't have published the ideas first before discussing them, but perhaps some good observations will come out of these debates.

                      In any event, there's very little doubt in my mind that a) a conspiracy occurred in Berner Street following the murder, and b) the Club was in serious damage control mode. But do I think there was a vast and immediate conspiracy on the part of the club to cover up the murder? No. Because it didn't matter if they had anything to do with the crime, they knew they were in a vulnerable position merely by the fact that a gentile woman had been murdered in their yard.

                      Was Schwartz attached to the club? Possibly, but let's consider for a moment that he was not and that what he reported seeing was accurate. He may have witnessed Morris Eagle returning home and removing a prostitute from his way into the yard. Would he have yelled an anti-Semetic epithet like Lipski? I don't see why not as the club was within spitting distance of where the Lipski crime had occurred a year before, and only a couple hours earlier, Eagle gave a speech about why Jews such as Schwartz should abandon their religion and become Socialists.

                      When Morris Eagle saw Stride's body in the yard, he reeled in shock. Was this because he was more squeamish than the others, as he claimed, or because he recognized the woman from 20 minutes earlier?

                      Do I think Eagle killed Stride? Of course not. But the implication is there, and he was witnessed by Schwartz. According to Mrs Diemschutz and others, he was the last man to enter the club before the body was discovered.

                      And what of PC Smith's man?

                      12:35 AM: Police Constable William Smith sees Stride with a young man on Berner Street opposite the International Working Men's Educational Club. The man is described as 28 years old, dark coat and hard deerstalker hat. He is carrying a parcel approximately 6 inches high and 18 inches in length. the package is wrapped in newspaper.

                      What the young man was carrying was possible a stack of Der Arbeter Fraint that the clubmen handed out at these meetings. The papers were about 17 or 18 inches long and 6 inches wide. A stack of these could reasonably be mistaken for a parcel wrapped in newspaper.

                      This is a young man standing opposite the club. Even though PC Smith obviously didn't recognize the young man as a clubman, I imagine Wess and the others did.

                      In short, while I don't think there was a major cover-up, I think it's quite possible that Eagle, Wess, and perhaps a couple of other men did see Liz there that night, interracted with her, and kept it to themselves.

                      Yours truly,

                      Tom Wescott


                      • #41
                        Swanson on Schwartz

                        DVV and others brought up the Oct. 19th 'Swanson Report' and his comment to the effect that 'if Schwartz is to be believed, and the police report leaves no doubt about it,' to suggest the police believed Schwartz. In actuality, this statement only tells us that the man who prepared the police report on Schwartz believed his story. That man was Abberline. Five weeks later, Abberline took a statement from George Hutchinson, wrote that he believed it to be true, and we all know how that ended. Hutchinson was dropped by the police as a viable witness. So too may have Schwartz been. According to the Start newspaper, this was certainly the case.

                        Abberline believed Schwartz to be telling the truth, and also Hutchinson. But both men gave descriptions of suspect that could be called 'night or day'. Therefore, Abberline was only giving his opinion as to his impression of the honesty of the person he was interviewing, not necessarily endorsing their evidence. Another possibility is that by the time Hutchinson sat down in front of him in November, he had come to discount Schwartz's evidence.

                        Yours truly,

                        Tom Wescott


                        • #42
                          The REAL Berner Street Conspiracy

                          A couple of posts ago I mentioned that I believe a conspiracy DID happen in Berner Street. Let me explain what I'm talking about.

                          As most of you know, Charles Le Grand and J.H. Batchelor were the private investigators employed by the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee. They showed up in Berner Street and virtually made a beeline to Matthew Packer's shop. Why? To talk grapes. The newspapers had erroneously mentioned that grapes had been found in Stride's hand, so they figured Packer was the guy to speak with.

                          As most of you also know, Charles Le Grand was a crook par excellence. Not too much is known about Batchelor, although I'll mention that within a year, Le Grand assaulted HIM in the street and was brought up on charges! But more importantly, Le Grand had a habit of paying people to give false evidence. It's pretty clear that's what happened here with Packer, since it's difficult to imagine this 58 year old greengrocer conning someone like Le Grand, and employing two residents of Dutfield's Yard to back up his claims.

                          Le Grand enduces Packer to lie that he sold grapes to Stride and a man. To back up his claims, he gets two girls living in Dutfield's Yard to say they saw a bloody grape stalk in the yard after the body was moved. He then stages a dramatic 'hunt' in the yard which produces...SHOCK...a grapestalk from the gutter of the club.

                          So, we now have five people involved in a conspiracy with Charles Le Grand at the threshold. But why? To answer this, we have to asked who benefitted from this ruse? Obviously, Stride's killer did, since everyone was now looking for Packer's imaginary man. But since Packer described a gentile clerk who spoke with a 'yankee twang', the Jewish clubmen were now out of hot water as far as the readers of the popular press were concerned.

                          So, I started looking for a connection between either Le Grand and the club or the Vigilance Committee and the club. I couldn't find any direct connection, particularly as regards Le Grand, but there may have been an association between the IWEC and the WVC.

                          1) When finding patrolmen for the committee, Lusk spoke at the East End socialist clubs. While there were a number of such clubs, the Berner Street Club was a primary among them and not at all far from the Committee's Mile End digs. So, there were quite possibly some or many men from the Berner Street Club doing duty for the WVC.

                          2) One essay written long ago describes George Lusk as a 'Marxist'. I have not been able to corroborate this, and the essay was unsourced, so I take this with a grain of salt. However, since the Berner Street Club was co-founded by the daughter of Karl Marx, we may have an interesting correlation here.

                          In any event, I've yet to find a 'smoking gun' connecting the two organizations. But if one is found, we'd have to consider the possibility that Le Grand and his conspiracy were enacted to take the heat of public opinion off the club and steer the suspicions elsewhere. That was certainly the outcome, after all. But as of right now, I'm not in the least convinced that the WVC had an complicity in the affair or vested interest in the Berner Street Club.

                          Yours truly,

                          Tom Wescott


                          • #43
                            Hi Tom,

                            Two excellent posts.

                            I happen to believe Matthew Packer, so here's the flip side of the coin.

                            Let's look at the logic of Stride being the woman accompanying the man Matthew Packer served with half-a-pound of grapes.

                            Here in the elegant right hand of our model, Susan, is half-a-pound of black grapes [bought from the Matthew Packer fruit concession at Albertsons supermarket]. Note how 29 grapes fill the hand and are somewhat difficult to conceal.

                            Click image for larger version

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                            The grapes were purchased at 11.45 pm. Stride was found dead at 1.00 am.

                            IRISH TIMES, 1st OCTOBER 1888

                            "A reporter who has seen the corpse states that . . . In her right hand were tightly clasped some grapes, and in her left she held a number of sweetmeats."

                            The description of the body was from an agency. The full version appeared word-for-word in a number of newspapers.

                            The Irish Times continued—

                            "A young Russian Pole, named M. Kozebrodski, born in Warsaw, and who spoke the English language imperfectly, gave the following information:-

                            "The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left."

                            "Diemschitz said, she had a flower in the bosom of her dress, and in one hand she had some grapes and in the other some sweets."

                            EVENING NEWS, 1st OCTOBER 1888

                            "Diemschitz being then asked to describe the body as well as he could, said: Her hands were tightly clenched, and when they were opened by the doctor I saw immediately that one had been holding sweetmeats and the other grapes."

                            One report suggests that in the 75 minutes between the purchase of the grapes and Stride being found dead she had not eaten the whole half-pound of grapes. Another report suggests that she had. If she had eaten the whole half-pound why would she have been holding a bare grapestalk?

                            The beautifully-manicured Susan is here holding the last 8 of the grapes.

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                            And here she's holding just the grapestalk.

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                            Stride's body was discovered at 1.00 am.

                            PC Lamb arrived a few minutes later. [Stride's left arm was under her body. Right arm across the breast].

                            PC Lamb did not see grapes or cachous.

                            Edward Johnston [Blackwell's assistant] arrived between 1.10 and 1.16 am. [Stride's left hand was lying away from the body, possibly on the ground, with left arm bent. Right arm also bent].

                            Johnston did not see grapes; nor did he "notice the paper in the left hand."

                            Doctor Blackwell arrived at 1.16 am. [Stride's partially-closed left hand containing cachous was lying on the ground. The right hand, "quite open" was across the chest].

                            Doctor Blackwell did not see grapes.

                            Diemschitz and Kozebrodski saw grapes as Blackwell examined Stride's body.

                            The press agency reporter saw grapes tightly grasped in Stride's right hand.

                            Doctor Blackwell [who arrived at 1.16 am] inquest testimony—

                            "I removed the cachous from the left hand, which was nearly open. The packet had lodged between the thumb and fourth finger, and had become almost hidden. That accounted for its not having been seen by several of those around . . ."

                            . . . except for Diemschitz, Kozebrodski and the press agency reporter, who saw that "in her left [hand] she held a number of sweetmeats."

                            Doctor Phillips [who arrived between 1.36 and 1.40 am] inquest testimony—

                            "The left arm was extended, and there was a packet of cachous in the left hand . . . I took them from her and handed them to Dr. Blackwell."

                            It's hard to know which doctor removed the cachous. But whoever it was, the press agency reporter must have seen the grapes and cachous in Stride's hands prior to this incident.

                            On Day 4 of the inquest Doctors Blackwell and Phillips were recalled.
                            Doctor Phillips inquest testimony—

                            "The Coroner also desired me to examine the two handkerchiefs which were found on the deceased. I did not discover any blood on them, and I believe that the stains on the larger handkerchief are those of fruit. Neither on the hands nor about the body of the deceased did I find grapes, or connection with them. I am convinced that the deceased had not swallowed either the skin or seed of a grape within many hours of her death."

                            [Coroner] "Did you perceive any grapes near the body in the yard?"

                            [Doctor Blackwell] "No."

                            [Coroner] "Did you hear any person say that they had seen grapes there?"

                            [Doctor Blackwell] "I did not."

                            Which is all very strange, because up until this moment on Friday 5th October, the subject of grapes had not been previously mentioned at the inquest.

                            But it just so happens that, after the close of the inquest on Wednesday 3rd October, Matthew Packer's grape-selling story appeared in The Evening News and the police went into full damage-control mode.


                            Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.


                            • #44
                              Hi Simon,

                              Great posts, and I like the photos. You're right about her great manicure! I'm not sure how you can believe Matthew Packer, since his story is a transparent lie. But I digress...

                              While Diemschutz and Kozebrodski (or one or the other) no doubt believed they saw grapes in Stride's hand, which is how it seeped into the press, they were mistaken. All those who were physically close to the body, such as the doctors and policemen and Edward Spooner, did not see any grapes. Diemschutz apparently realized his error by the time of the inquest because he made no remark about them. Stride had no grape juice stains on her hand, there were no grapes near her body, and no skins or seeds in her stomach. There simply weren't any grapes.

                              Yours truly,

                              Tom Wescott


                              • #45
                                Tom, you generally confuse the hell outta me, but here you do it special.
                                So, like many other potentates in this field you reckon a Jew did it?
                                If so, why would Le Grand serve and protect a Jew, or a Jewish organisation? Especially when his wages were being paid by a non-Jewish organisation?
                                There is a connection between the IWEC and Le Bland, as I pointed out to you a very long time ago, but you missed it then and I guess you'll miss it now, because as you said in your post, why should we work for the benefit of others.
                                I do.
                                Be sweet.