Those Damned Cachous

[c.d.]

Why in the world would she dress up for a cleaning assignment? It's not like she got the cleaning assignment after undergoing a series of grueling interviews and wanted to continue to impress. Plus as Lynn always says the club members didn't have a pot to pee in. If it was her job to clean, why would they care how she was dressed?

Why not tell the police that Liz was there to clean? That makes a lot more sense than coming up with the B.S. man story.

c.d.

[Bridewell]

Your default explanation for her appearance and the cashous and the flowers is that some prostitutes like to look pretty for their customers.

Most people like to look good most of the time. Prostitutes are no exception in that regard. Whatever Stride was doing that evening, and whether or not she was (or ever had been) a prostitute, she clearly took a pride in her appearance to the extent that she was able to do so. She wanted her breath to smell fresh so she acquired some cachous. It doesn't prove that she had a date, was or wasn't soliciting, or that she was looking to attract a man, just that she wanted her breath to be fresh.

[Tom_Wescott]

I have a theory about the cachous (and please excuse me if this has already been stated)

I think Liz was meeting someone that night who was NOT a client. I think she was using the cachous to sweeten her breath in order o get rid of the possible foulness she might have acquired during the course of her solicitations that night. She wouldn't want maybe Michael Kidney or antoher personal acquaitance to smell her "work" on her breath.

Which also ties in with with why I don't think she was a Ripper victim. I think it was a domestic squabble gone wrong

That's a horrible theory.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[JTRSickert]

I have a theory about the cachous (and please excuse me if this has already been stated)

I think Liz was meeting someone that night who was NOT a client. I think she was using the cachous to sweeten her breath in order o get rid of the possible foulness she might have acquired during the course of her solicitations that night. She wouldn't want maybe Michael Kidney or antoher personal acquaitance to smell her "work" on her breath.

Which also ties in with with why I don't think she was a Ripper victim. I think it was a domestic squabble gone wrong

[Michael W Richards]

G'Day Michael

Makes sense to me.

GUT

Thanks GUT......I think it would be a basis for some tangential storyline too, because if what I suggested is correct, then members like Eagle, Lave and Diemshutz's storys would be questioned and even Mrs Diemshutz's surprise at this event would be questioned. I recall Fanny stating that she couldnt believe Mrs Diemshutz couldnt hear anything from that passageway,... the door was open, she was in the kitchen, and Liz was not that far from that side door.

If Liz was waiting for an appointment time, perhaps 1?, to meet someone or to knock on the side door to report to Mrs D for work....then she would have had to have been seen by Eagle... for certain. Maybe thats why Eagle refused to state categorically that the body wasnt there when he passed that spot...in fact he said he couldnt remember whether anyone was in the street or in the passageway, and wasnt sure whether a body was on the ground when he walked by.

Cheers

[GUT]

G'Day Michael

Makes sense to me.

GUT

[Michael W Richards]

But, Michael, if she were waiting around for the meeting to end so that she could clean the building, would she have been concerned about her appearance, or be wearing a flower on her bosom?

Corsages are for celebratory occasions, not for work, I would think.

curious

I wondered if it were possible that she was showing up to work for Mrs D for the first time,....perhaps one of her other Jewish clients recommended her...or was a member there.

Flower on breast, fresh breath mints in her hand, and an earlier request that night to brush lint from her ankle length skirt...seems intent on making a good impression. There is something like preening in that evidence, Im not sure whether for someone special or a good work opportunity.

Im fairly sure it wasnt for a random dockworker though.

Cheers

[Paddy]

Hi, Digalittledeeperwatson,
It does occur to me that perhaps her evening out and various men was just an enjoyable evening out, talking and flirting a bit, while she was waiting to go "to work" cleaning the club.

so many possibilities.

This is my opinion also...

Pat................................

[curious]

Yes, quite possibly. If she was on a date previously, or soliciting, it is possible when she was finished she went as is to the club for cleaning duties. Nothing wrong with looking good when going to a place where there are plenty of men. Especially if she was not with Kidney at the time. Although, I don't really buy into anything coming from Berner Street that night. I don't have a problem with her soliciting, or dating, or cleaning. I only take issue with the reasoning placed behind the possibilities. Last line is not a dig at anyone.

Hi, Digalittledeeperwatson,
It does occur to me that perhaps her evening out and various men was just an enjoyable evening out, talking and flirting a bit, while she was waiting to go "to work" cleaning the club.

so many possibilities.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo, sorry to interupt.

But, Michael, if she were waiting around for the meeting to end so that she could clean the building, would she have been concerned about her appearance, or be wearing a flower on her bosom?

Corsages are for celebratory occasions, not for work, I would think.

curious

Yes, quite possibly. If she was on a date previously, or soliciting, it is possible when she was finished she went as is to the club for cleaning duties. Nothing wrong with looking good when going to a place where there are plenty of men. Especially if she was not with Kidney at the time. Although, I don't really buy into anything coming from Berner Street that night. I don't have a problem with her soliciting, or dating, or cleaning. I only take issue with the reasoning placed behind the possibilities. Last line is not a dig at anyone.

[curious]

Since the evidence indicates that Liz had been employed doing charwoman duties more recently than we have any indication she had been soliciting on the streets...(by the way, ever seen a story about Liz caught soliciting in the East End?)....and since we have her own words that she was employed by Jews for her most recent work history, wouldn't it be irresponsible to the investigation to not factor those elements into the equation, since she is killed while on the private property of Jews that had immediate cleaning needs?

Cheers

But, Michael, if she were waiting around for the meeting to end so that she could clean the building, would she have been concerned about her appearance, or be wearing a flower on her bosom?

Corsages are for celebratory occasions, not for work, I would think.

curious

[lynn cates]

forensics

Hello (again) Caroline. The "angry burst" is merely a suggestion, one I owe to Rob Clack.

If you need a serial killer, call him "Jack," then, if he lured her to the club and met her at the side door, etc. there is no problem.

The problem is largely a matter of forensics and THAT given trying to dovetail the Schwartz episode with the body position.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

motive

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

Motive? Haven't the foggiest. I said your scenario was CONSISTENT--didn't say I liked or believed it.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

It would seem Caz that you are drawn to the solicitation theory as moth to flame, youre default explanation for her appearance and the cashous and the flowers is that some prostitutes like to look pretty for their customers.

Are you aware of the male reported cases of venereal diseases data for that district at that period in time?..., because in that data you will find that the largest number of cases by Occupation was reported from Warehouse workers. People who work all sorts of shifts, get off at all sorts of hours, and generally wouldn't receive fresh breath and flowered jackets from their partners. They would couple with the street women that were by choice or by circumstances without a home or money to let a bed. Not the "freshest" group, Im sure.

I keep wondering why you insist on her motivations for being there when you know well that at least 75% of the men that attended that meeting were long gone by the time she arrives there. Only 30 or so members remained, and they were inside singing, not outside seeking prostitutes from the street in front of their club. Plus she isn't on the street is she? She is killed while on their property, and since the last reliable sighting of her is PC Smith, she could have gone into the passageway, or to use the loo as you suggest, just after 12:35. Do street prostitutes of the day generally use, without permission...since no-one at the club saw her alive apparently... private facilities on private property, or are they more likely to seek out public facilities or squat in a dark alley if need be.

Have you considered that at work "among the jews" allows for an interpretation that she was getting work from a number of jews, perhaps a group or organization comprised of jews? Isnt a Jewish club that would be in dire need of cleaning after a large meeting a suitable candidate for a scenario like that?

Since the evidence indicates that Liz had been employed doing charwoman duties more recently than we have any indication she had been soliciting on the streets...(by the way, ever seen a story about Liz caught soliciting in the East End?)....and since we have her own words that she was employed by Jews for her most recent work history, wouldn't it be irresponsible to the investigation to not factor those elements into the equation, since she is killed while on the private property of Jews that had immediate cleaning needs?

Cheers

[caz]

She owed him money? He was a psychopath and she laughed at his penis size? She broke his heart? I mean, we don't know why she was where she was. Not really a busy street, not the best for customers. A couple hours previously, sure. If she was meeting someone, it could have been someone she wanted to see like a date, or someone she didn't want to see and had to deal with. Like some ganger running a protection racket, or a nasty guy she borrowed money from. Prostitutes tend not to keep good company.

And the woman was running a scam. Not one I would immediately assume would result in her death, but who knows?

Sorry, Errata, I was specifically asking Lynn, because he rejects the possibility that Stride was killed by Jack (the one person who needed no conventional motive, who also had the knife skills, the confidence and recent experience to overpower a victim and kill her swiftly, quietly, efficiently and dispassionately, without getting covered in the red stuff), yet consistently fails to come up with a good explanation for this woman being singled out for the slaughter. Lynn's usual response is that the killer may have struck in a sudden burst of anger - a whim in effect, but that would suggest Stride did or said something which provoked this deadly reaction, for which there is not the slightest evidence.

There is also no evidence of premeditation, by someone who knew Stride, bore her a grudge, and would have needed to follow her to that yard, or somehow know she would be there at a certain time. All Jack had to do was wander the streets with a very sharp knife and take his chances with any woman who appeared to be on her own and vulnerable. A one-off killer, with a deep desire to do violence against Stride specifically, would have been a completely different kettle of fish - one which requires explanation if not evidence. That type of street murder was, is and always has been more than rare, especially when the victim is a female of a certain age.

Love,

Caz
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