Piece of Apron and the 'Juwes'

Warrens decision cannot have been based on the literal threat the writing contained, it's context is unclear. But he did know about the bad karma that existed between himself and the local jewish socialist population, and that The Model Dwellings off Goulston were perhaps rife with them.

I believe the fact he ordered the removal shows that he felt it was unconnected with the apron section, not that it was inflammatory in and of itself. But it might reveal how dangerous he thought his position was among people his horseback police were ordered to club the previous year in Trafalgar Square.

Best regards.

[Dan Norder]

but I came across that term 'The Juwes as being used in Masonic history too

After his book trying to implicate Freemasons in the Ripper murders, Stephen Knight moved onto writing a book solely about Freemasonry and all the supposed plots and so forth they were up to, including repeating the claim that "Juwes" was the word used to refer to what all other sources that mention them refer to as "The Three Ruffians". Some bad books that came out after Knight repeated this information directly from Stephen Knight's book without first trying to verify whether it was true or not. The fact that you read it in a book (or the other person found it in a Google search of the entire Internet, where an idiot can make any claim he or she wants to) does not mean it's accurate.

[Sam Flynn]

Furthermore, concerning the erasure of the graffiti itself, one could certainly argue a Ripper/Warren/Mason connection considering Warren was a known Mason.

It's extremely doubtful that Warren would have worried, or even known, about a term so obscure that it would take some imaginative media types some 90 years to make the connection. That assumes, of course, that "juwes" had the Masonic meaning we're led to believe it had, but there is no evidence (outside said imaginative media types) that it ever had any such connotations.

[Billy Bulger]

In another thread about the victims knowing each other, it was stated that 'Juwes' is/was not a masonic term - if you look it up on Google you do get the story of the assassins of Hiram etc.

Bill S[/QUOTE]

Hi Bill S
I appreciate your post because the GSG is an area of the case I'm interested in too. There has been a great many arguments put fourth in recent years that Juwes was not a Masonic term but rather a substitute term for 'Ruffians' but I came across that term 'The Juwes as being used in Masonic history too and so if the Ripper did write these words then maybe Stephen Knight and co are not as fantastical as has been made out!
Furthermore, concerning the erasure of the graffiti itself, one could certainly argue a Ripper/Warren/Mason connection considering Warren was a known Mason.

[Sam Flynn]

Nice one, Sam, of course it had to have been a Dr Brown !!

...or his "Number Two"

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon,
None other than Dr Gordon Brown's inquest testimony:

"I have seen a portion of an apron produced by Doctor Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulston Street... some blood and apparently faecal matter was found on the portion found in Goulston Street"

Nice one, Sam, of course it had to have been a Dr Brown !!

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Jon,

Is there a source for the apron having faeces on it ?

None other than Dr Gordon Brown's inquest testimony:

"I have seen a portion of an apron produced by Doctor Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulston Street... some blood and apparently faecal matter was found on the portion found in Goulston Street"

[Jon Guy]

Hello

Is there a source for the apron having faeces on it ?

[DVV]

"even if we dismiss Stride as his victim, the piece of apron and the graffito can hardly be a coincidence"

Could almost have guessed that was your post, DVV; you are moving at the same speed as when you tie the violent madman Fleming to Kellys death ...

Of course it could have been a coincidence. If he had thrown it in a fruiterers doorway, should that be seen as a hint that he came from the Big Apple? I side with Graham and Sam here, but I will not advice you to read anything more into finding us side by side than a mutual taste for healthy scepticism.

The best,

Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,
your healthy scepticism is welcome, and as to my "speed" to tie events, well, no, I'm not convinced of anything, I just try to consider various and contradictory possibilities, and you may at least concede that the fact that piece of apron was found near to this graffito can be seen, at least, as an extraordinary coincidence, no?
So, still trying to consider different possibilities, what Jack could have done more to "sign" the graffito (IF he wrote it)? Give his name and address and add: "I'm down on Juwes as well as on whores"?

Amitiés,
David
You

[Simon Wood]

Hi Ben,

What apron?

Regards,

Simon

[Ben]

Hi Graham,

I'm with you all the way with regard to the killer's making for home as soon as possible via the most direct route, and it's not unreasonable to suggest that the message may not have been ripper-authored, but I don't think the cloth was removed to wipe up en route. His hands were never going to be clean. He could only get the worst of it off, and it would have taken as much time to do that as it would to remove the apron in the first place. As such, I consider it more likely that the segment was removed to contain the organs, but that's another done-to-death argument.

Best regards,
Ben

[Simon Wood]

Hi Sam,

What apron?

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Paul and Observer

The "laying out" and "skirts raised" are almost certainly a result of what happened to the women, rather than any conscious effort on Jack's part - it would be more remarkable if he'd laid their arms at their sides, straightened their legs and pulled their skirts back down. Whether one interprets a stray thimble as being either deliberately placed or as mockery is rather subjective, and it may just have fallen there.

Meanwhile, back in apron-land...

[paul emmett]

The laying out of the victims, skirts raised to reveal the mutilations, the arranging of Chapman’s belongings, the nicking of Eddowe’s eyelids, the thimble placed in mockery near her finger, Kelly’s hand thrust into her abdomen, a child playing a game in my eyes. I believe he revelled in the newspapers accounts of his deeds, I can see him standing waiting for the newspapers to hit the streets, a big game, albeit a deadly one.

Hello, Observer. I certianly agree: it's all a game. And JTR cares about the newspapers. Indeed, Dan's recent article shows how he incorporates reports about past killings into future killings. Papers and play!

[Justin]

ti all over the East End similar to the GSG, i.e., with a reference to the Jews.

Oddly, I've never seen anything horrible about Mohammed scrawled on walls, but plenty of crap about Jesus...at least where I live. Maybe the average white teenage chav hasn't a clue about who Mohammed was...

Neither have I, actually...and you're probably right, but I like to think it's a good sign! I've always secretly smiled at the proprietors of the Muslim bookshop on Brick Lane leaving the S CHAIKIN sign in their entryway.

That said, the London poet is not dead...recently seen on a tile at Monument tube station:

PEACHES
TAKE THY REACHES
FOR I CAN HOLD ON
NO MORE

Sounds like Maybrick to me, what do you think?