September 30,1888- The night of Clues?

[scottnapa]

Liz Stride was not mutilated and was found in the yard of a notorious house full of Jewish anarchists. It might have crossed the killer's mind that he wouldn't get credit for her murder. He needn't have had the chalk on him when he killed Eddowes. Given the lapse of time between her murder and discovery of the apron/writing, he may have returned home, deposited the offal, and left again with the apron and chalk. Who knows? What is interesting that the police were at no point worried about a 'riot' errupting in Berner Street. A crowd of hundreds had gathered and they were content to leave a sole constable in front of the gates to Dutfield's Yard. But they had to erase their best evidence in Goulston Street where they'd gotten early and were in a position to prevent a crowd even from gathering. Shame on Warren and Arnold.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Liz Stride was not mutilated and was found in the yard of a notorious house full of Jewish anarchists. It might have crossed the killer's mind that he wouldn't get credit for her murder. He needn't have had the chalk on him when he killed Eddowes. Given the lapse of time between her murder and discovery of the apron/writing, he may have returned home, deposited the offal, and left again with the apron and chalk. Who knows? What is interesting that the police were at no point worried about a 'riot' errupting in Berner Street. A crowd of hundreds had gathered and they were content to leave a sole constable in front of the gates to Dutfield's Yard. But they had to erase their best evidence in Goulston Street where they'd gotten early and were in a position to prevent a crowd even from gathering. Shame on Warren and Arnold.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom
Thank you so very much for the reply.
I admire your books greatly.
at this point a simple murder isn’t enough for Jack. I agree that Stride’s and the death leaves the Ripper unsatisfied
A slit throat alone, is not what he is seeking. Thus the Eddowes evisceration indicates that’s the sort of violence he was thirsting.
The Ripper having killed two in one night, must realize the terror this will create in throughout London.

I am curious about the chalk. Not sure why there seems to be a question about the Ripper needing to get chalk.
The pockets of his victims are packeted with small personal items.
Certainly there’s room in a man’s jacket and coat. It’s cold and wet— more layers, more pockets.
William Marshall and Emily Marsh describe Jack’s appearance to be like a clerk.
Clerks use chalk, butchers, grocers, many businesses need daily prices in chalk

shame on Warren and Arnold. Indeed.
I find that the police pay a price for populating its force with a high percentage of military men.
Philosophy of the English army in the colonial period was predicted on minimizing rebellion.
Whitehall treated Whitechapel as a colony of foreigners . Constables at fixed points, like prison guards.

[scottnapa]

ummm, no. thats one of the most convoluted interpretations ive ever seen. lol

Thank you

[Abby Normal]

The key words for me are "will not be blamed" I see a clarity of purpose there. No duplicity in those three words.
The apron means "I am me." Pay attention. the chalk message says "we are us" I killed. Do not blame my people.I am with them but theyare not me.

ummm, no. thats one of the most convoluted interpretations ive ever seen. lol

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

That could be what the GSG means, but if the killer wrote it, it seems odd. His dropping the apron at that spot would mean that he wanted it known that he, the killer, wrote it. But then with his words, he pointed the finger at others. He would seem to have been operating at cross purposes with himself. It's as if he's saying, "Hi, I'm the killer, and the Jews did it."

hes not thinking it out like that though, you are. hes in the heat of the moment. and the gsg threw the police into a tizzy trying to figure it out. remember at this point the police leading theory was its a jew..pizer, anderson . all he had to do was mention jews, signed with the bloody apron and it got the desired effect. even the police knew that and had it erased.

the ripper was a gentile local dude who disliked jews and or tried to throw blame on tjem.

[Tom_Wescott]

The key words for me are "will not be blamed" I see a clarity of purpose there. No duplicity in those three words.
The apron means "I am me." Pay attention. the chalk message says "we are us" I killed. Do not blame my people.I am with them but theyare not me.

Liz Stride was not mutilated and was found in the yard of a notorious house full of Jewish anarchists. It might have crossed the killer's mind that he wouldn't get credit for her murder. He needn't have had the chalk on him when he killed Eddowes. Given the lapse of time between her murder and discovery of the apron/writing, he may have returned home, deposited the offal, and left again with the apron and chalk. Who knows? What is interesting that the police were at no point worried about a 'riot' errupting in Berner Street. A crowd of hundreds had gathered and they were content to leave a sole constable in front of the gates to Dutfield's Yard. But they had to erase their best evidence in Goulston Street where they'd gotten early and were in a position to prevent a crowd even from gathering. Shame on Warren and Arnold.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[scottnapa]

Hi Abby,

That could be what the GSG means, but if the killer wrote it, it seems odd. His dropping the apron at that spot would mean that he wanted it known that he, the killer, wrote it. But then with his words, he pointed the finger at others. He would seem to have been operating at cross purposes with himself. It's as if he's saying, "Hi, I'm the killer, and the Jews did it."

The key words for me are "will not be blamed" I see a clarity of purpose there. No duplicity in those three words.
The apron means "I am me." Pay attention. the chalk message says "we are us" I killed. Do not blame my people.I am with them but theyare not me.

[Lewis C]

hi lewis
an expert on victorian london language said that the gsg message means... the jews wont take the blame for anything. ie. wont take responsibility for anything. so, the jews are the men that wont take responsibility for anything. its an insult to jews and implicating them in the crimes.

and that it was probably written by a local cockney amd the double negative is used incorrectly which was common for the place and time. kind of like here in the states one can often here a criminal say something along the lines of...i aint done nothing. obviously the person means ...i havent done anything.


pair the local gentile message of the gsg with the earlier anti jewish slur lipski shouted at the schwartz, and we can be rest assured that the two are linked and the killer of the double event night was in all likelihood a local english gentile man with a dislike of jews.

Hi Abby,

That could be what the GSG means, but if the killer wrote it, it seems odd. His dropping the apron at that spot would mean that he wanted it known that he, the killer, wrote it. But then with his words, he pointed the finger at others. He would seem to have been operating at cross purposes with himself. It's as if he's saying, "Hi, I'm the killer, and the Jews did it."

[c.d.]

an expert on victorian london language said that the gsg message means... the jews wont take the blame for anything. ie. wont take responsibility for anything. so, the jews are the men that wont take responsibility for anything. its an insult to jews and implicating them in the crimes.

Unless he himself wrote it, he was simply giving his opinion not stating a fact. Another "expert" might disagree. Take such statements with a big grain of salt.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

I hope it isn’t maddening chubbs or else “Ladies of the Night, beware!”

****** ** *****

I am inclined to believe that Catherine Eddowes was prostituting herself scottnapa 1) she had parted from her paramour earlier that day with the intent of obtaining money (mission unsuccessful); 2) she had either ( spent any money she obtained from who-knows-where ) or (relied upon the charity of another) to get herself drunk & disorderly; 3) expressed concern that there would be physical repercussions by her beau for her drunkenness; 4) presented an immediate appearance to Joseph Levy that she was a low-class street-character who was engaged in some form of lascivious behavior. In other words, her wants (upon leaving the police station) may have been fast-money for food & lodging or to assuage John Kelly’s anger.

I agree, I don’t believe English was the first language of the graffito-writer, I ponder if it was written by someone who was accustomed to the spelling of J-u-d-e in his native tongue.

****** ** *****

was there ever anything further discovered about Martha Tabram’s clothing Tom_Wescott there was an excellent observation made on these forums that the forming of Polly Nichols’ abdominal wounds was directly related to the obstacle presented by her undergarment (her stays?). I could imagine how Martha was stabbed rather than ripped if she was wearing some form of corset or obstructive undergarment.

i know that rendering someone unconscious by means of strangulation is a short process measured in seconds (especially when force is placed on the carotid or when pressure is pushed heavily upon the chest); still, the general lack of violence indicative upon the woman (black eyes, broken jaw, broken fingers, &c.) or indicative in her clothing (rips, tears, &c.) suggests an efficiency with “his” modus operandi that may have been more achievable if there were two parties involved.
** Plus there is that one cut on Catherine Eddowes which is puzzling. The cut to her throat appears the work of a right-handed man situated on her right-side, but the cut along her midline (from pubes up to sternum) appears the work of a right-handed man situated on her left-side.

Martha Tabram was more or less nude.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Hi Scott,

I think the meaning of the GSG is unclear. For one thing, it has a double negative. Usually, when someone uses a double negative, they're saying the opposite of what they mean, but can we assume that that's the case here? Also, "blame" can be taken more than one way. It could mean held responsible, or it could mean accused, probably falsely. And does "will not" literally mean that, a prediction of the future, or does it mean "must not"?

I think it has been established that Eddowes engaged in prostitution at least occasionally, and if Lawende really saw her, it would seem probable that she was soliciting at the time. However, it's possible that the man Lawende saw her with (if that was even her) did not kill her, and that she was ambushed in Mitre Square.

hi lewis
an expert on victorian london language said that the gsg message means... the jews wont take the blame for anything. ie. wont take responsibility for anything. so, the jews are the men that wont take responsibility for anything. its an insult to jews and implicating them in the crimes.

and that it was probably written by a local cockney amd the double negative is used incorrectly which was common for the place and time. kind of like here in the states one can often here a criminal say something along the lines of...i aint done nothing. obviously the person means ...i havent done anything.


pair the local gentile message of the gsg with the earlier anti jewish slur lipski shouted at the schwartz, and we can be rest assured that the two are linked and the killer of the double event night was in all likelihood a local english gentile man with a dislike of jews.

[Patrick Differ]

Hi Robert- I actually live in Maryland, my Father was born outside of Glasgow but migrated to the USA in 1929. Coal miners. My mom's parents fled the TSARs pogroms in Poland/Russia and made it to the USA in 1907. My grandfather was forced to join the Russian Army upon threat of shooting his entire family. His stepmother gladly obliged. But he was courageous enough to escape. I came along in 1952. Some perspective here on yours truly. My Dad was flight engineer on B17s in WW2. I came along in 1952 but Dad was killed on Dec 30, 1952 on his 9th bombing mission over North Korea in a B29 Superfortress. I never knew him but 5 men bailed out and 4 survived. Probably more than you wanted to know but part of my quest is understanding my own roots.
I know your yarn and highly recommend Fishmans 2 books on the East End and Jewish Radicals. It paints a good picture and leads you off to Google World to better understand these characters and timeperiod.
My take on these women walking the streets of Whitechapel is that they were no shrinking violets. Weakened by deprivation but based on the fact they had all been in Whitechapel for years, they were likely Street smart and not easily fooled. Their senses clearly heightened after Tabrum and Nichols. But as Chapman declared she had little choice. JtR had to be one cool convincing character and I believe that was displayed with Chapman, Stride, Eddowes and Kelly. ALL seen negotiating. Begs the question of whether they would be more on guard with a stranger versus someone who was known?
I personally lean towards JtR being a local puncher. These women demonstrated that while they may be desperate on one level, they also talked about having their Doss money several times in the day. And they still negotiate? Alcoholism and Pubs are part of this equation.
what does it mean? Who the hell knows!
Cheers..

[Robert St Devil]

I hope it isn’t maddening chubbs or else “Ladies of the Night, beware!”

****** ** *****

I am inclined to believe that Catherine Eddowes was prostituting herself scottnapa 1) she had parted from her paramour earlier that day with the intent of obtaining money (mission unsuccessful); 2) she had either ( spent any money she obtained from who-knows-where ) or (relied upon the charity of another) to get herself drunk & disorderly; 3) expressed concern that there would be physical repercussions by her beau for her drunkenness; 4) presented an immediate appearance to Joseph Levy that she was a low-class street-character who was engaged in some form of lascivious behavior. In other words, her wants (upon leaving the police station) may have been fast-money for food & lodging or to assuage John Kelly’s anger.

I agree, I don’t believe English was the first language of the graffito-writer, I ponder if it was written by someone who was accustomed to the spelling of J-u-d-e in his native tongue.

****** ** *****

was there ever anything further discovered about Martha Tabram’s clothing Tom_Wescott there was an excellent observation made on these forums that the forming of Polly Nichols’ abdominal wounds was directly related to the obstacle presented by her undergarment (her stays?). I could imagine how Martha was stabbed rather than ripped if she was wearing some form of corset or obstructive undergarment.

i know that rendering someone unconscious by means of strangulation is a short process measured in seconds (especially when force is placed on the carotid or when pressure is pushed heavily upon the chest); still, the general lack of violence indicative upon the woman (black eyes, broken jaw, broken fingers, &c.) or indicative in her clothing (rips, tears, &c.) suggests an efficiency with “his” modus operandi that may have been more achievable if there were two parties involved.
** Plus there is that one cut on Catherine Eddowes which is puzzling. The cut to her throat appears the work of a right-handed man situated on her right-side, but the cut along her midline (from pubes up to sternum) appears the work of a right-handed man situated on her left-side.

[chubbs]

...

Building upon your assertion that the antisemitic social climate of L8ND8N manifested this entity known as “Jack the Ripper” to appear in the East End. Mass immigration has given way to racialization, marginalization. Protests are met with authoritative prejudice and violence; Commissioner Warren’s critical handling of Trafalgar Square puts him en par with the czar in the eyes of Marxist Jews & they have him equally in mind when they sing their battle hymn of “a knife… a knife… a knife for the Tsar”. Most recently, the petitioned pleas for the reprieve of Israel Lipski from a biased judge went unheard as the Jew would be soon to meet his death at the gallows; to add insult to injury, his surname is cast as a general slander indiscriminately cursed upon the Jewish citizen.
So to cast revenge upon this prejudiced organization known as the East End and the police, the radical “Jack the Ripper” sets upon a mission to 1) horrify the East End English & 2) embarrass the police as well as Charles Warren into resignation. It’s an era of nihilism, where the ends justify the means; in this case, the means come by way of slaughtering pitiful unfortunate prostitutes in grotesque macabre fashion. The conscious of the killer is undisturbed because these women represent the dregs of the class system as well as a bane to the Jewish man who detests seeing their character while walking home from the social club. Each murder ups the ante, each murders intensifies the horror, each murder casts buffoonery on this dreaded police department until eventually the pièce de résistance on Lord Mayor’s Day secures “Jack the Ripper’s” ultimate objective: complete humiliation & Warren’s resignation. And so the ends are met, and the murders stop.
And where would one go to find this type of nihilism? Why, the Nihilist Club, of course, the IWEC !
And so… on September 30 1888… after warming his blade on Elizabeth Stride’s throat, the entity known as “Jack the Ripper” heads into the night with the intent of sending a message to those who would marginalize the Juwes.

Now, do I believe any of this theory? No, not really, but it is entertaining to say the least.

You seem to be developing Baronitis. There is no cure.

[Robert St Devil]

Your framework isn’t that hard to imagine Patrick Differ what with the “social climate” here Stateside. If your are unfamiliar with our current events, apparently we (the USA) are “under invasion” (albeit non-lethal) from a tidal wave of illegal immigration by a class of undesired aliens (which I can attest isn’t entirely untrue) hailing from their own Pale of Settlement ie. Venezuela. According to American politicos and media sources, they are responsible for soaring egg prices, the bird flu, your favorite Netflix show being canceled, your son wanting a face tattoo, and for Joker 2:Folie â Deux being a box office flop. As a people, they worship Santa Muerte, eat their neighbor’s pets,… oh well! you get the idea. Much how the Eastern European Jews “invading” London in the late 19th Century threatened a British generation’s sentimentality of growing-up under a Dickensian lore, these illegal aliens are invoking an epidemic nostalgia within an American generation who pine for a return of the sweet simplicity of a Spielbergian era of the 1980s. A nationalistic fervor burgeoning on fascism renders mute any attempt at sensible discourses of dialogue regarding this social catastrophe, as “patriotic” clans lobby forward to adopting a 1905 Aliens Act 2-point-oh!
Much like the Anglo-Jewry of that era and their abhorrence of their filthy brethren, there exists a contingency today of Anglospanics {a middle-class of Latins living in America whose families’ bank accounts actively [know|feel] the wealth of Latin America /or/ Americans of Latin heritage whose lineage was indoctrinated into the American Experience by participating in its history throughout the 20th Century - from the wars of [Europe|Asia|Middle East] to the civil rights movements to the generational booms etcetera}, and these Anglospanics detest these aliens en par with the nationalists. And even though they may share in the same form of Yiddish-gibberish ie. Spanish, that’s where the similarities cease.
I would like to propose a 3rd consideration beyond the anglicized Jew and the Jewish immigrants; that being, the radical Jew. Much like the radical Hispanic who naively understands this vast cultural gap between himself and these aliens, who harbors a bipolarity of idealistic & opinionated views on these people, whose bias differs from the Anglospanic but who also recognizes the manifestation of a real national problem with these aliens but realizes that history serves no purpose because those who have shared in a similar experience - the Irish, the Italians, the Africans, the Asians, the Jews - don’t recognize themselves in the shared experience. In that era, the radical may have been attracted to anarchism, nihilism, etcetera.

****** ** *****

Now it’s my turn to spin-a-yarn for you.

Building upon your assertion that the antisemitic social climate of L8ND8N manifested this entity known as “Jack the Ripper” to appear in the East End. Mass immigration has given way to racialization, marginalization. Protests are met with authoritative prejudice and violence; Commissioner Warren’s critical handling of Trafalgar Square puts him en par with the czar in the eyes of Marxist Jews & they have him equally in mind when they sing their battle hymn of “a knife… a knife… a knife for the Tsar”. Most recently, the petitioned pleas for the reprieve of Israel Lipski from a biased judge went unheard as the Jew would be soon to meet his death at the gallows; to add insult to injury, his surname is cast as a general slander indiscriminately cursed upon the Jewish citizen.
So to cast revenge upon this prejudiced organization known as the East End and the police, the radical “Jack the Ripper” sets upon a mission to 1) horrify the East End English & 2) embarrass the police as well as Charles Warren into resignation. It’s an era of nihilism, where the ends justify the means; in this case, the means come by way of slaughtering pitiful unfortunate prostitutes in grotesque macabre fashion. The conscious of the killer is undisturbed because these women represent the dregs of the class system as well as a bane to the Jewish man who detests seeing their character while walking home from the social club. Each murder ups the ante, each murders intensifies the horror, each murder casts buffoonery on this dreaded police department until eventually the pièce de résistance on Lord Mayor’s Day secures “Jack the Ripper’s” ultimate objective: complete humiliation & Warren’s resignation. And so the ends are met, and the murders stop.
And where would one go to find this type of nihilism? Why, the Nihilist Club, of course, the IWEC !
And so… on September 30 1888… after warming his blade on Elizabeth Stride’s throat, the entity known as “Jack the Ripper” heads into the night with the intent of sending a message to those who would marginalize the Juwes.

Now, do I believe any of this theory? No, not really, but it is entertaining to say the least.

[scottnapa]

Hi Scott,

I think the meaning of the GSG is unclear. For one thing, it has a double negative. Usually, when someone uses a double negative, they're saying the opposite of what they mean, but can we assume that that's the case here? Also, "blame" can be taken more than one way. It could mean held responsible, or it could mean accused, probably falsely. And does "will not" literally mean that, a prediction of the future, or does it mean "must not"?

I think it has been established that Eddowes engaged in prostitution at least occasionally, and if Lawende really saw her, it would seem probable that she was soliciting at the time. However, it's possible that the man Lawende saw her with (if that was even her) did not kill her, and that she was ambushed in Mitre Square.

I think Catherine was heading back to Boon where she'd been drinking earlier so here's a map that I made kind of showing how I think about it