September 30,1888- The night of Clues?

[Patrick Differ]

Team- i don't believe the Imperial Club was a Socialist Club. I doubt Joseph Hyam Levy was a Socialist. He was an established Londoner, born in Aldgate and very successful. Lawende was a Polish immigrant but that did not make one a Socialist. I believe this Club was a social club for Jews and was there long before the Jewish Radicals came to the East End . Also Levy would have been considered a Master and likely not allowed in a Place like the International Working Mens Club on Berner Street.
Fishman gets into alot of this in his East End Jewish Radicals.
Worth the read and alot of Press Reports from that time period. It's important to note that besides a Class System there was also a clear distinction between the existing London born Jews and the Immigrants. Even the Jewish Chronical could appear anti immigrant. This appears to be traced back to the long fight the London Jews fought to be accepted into London Society and as members of Parliament.
I'm not sure you can not look at the Whitechapel Murders and not ask - What Jewish person are you talking about or describing? In the latter case the witnesses. What did foriegner mean? He looks Jewish or was an immigrant Jew?

No Englishman could be the Ripper! Does that mean it had to be an Immigrant Jew? Did that thought affect the Investigation? Joseph Hyam Levy, a butcher, when he got the knock on his door by Police after Eddowes Murder was not considered a suspect. Yet he was a butcher and a Jew but also an Englishman. Eddowes was certainly butchered.

The point is there were distinctions in Class and being English v One of the new Immigrants coming from Eastern Europe. It could have affected the investigation if Foriegner or of Jewish appearance had a specific meaning.

Thoughts??

[scottnapa]

The Imperial [sic] in Duke's Place was ... a Jewish socialist club...?? Really...??

M.

I read it here on the site.

jerryd
Chief Inspector
05-06-2019, 03:39 AM
Hi Jeff,
A couple of things and thanks for starting the thread, btw.
The club Lawende and Co. were at was not a pub. The Imperial Club was a Jewish socialist club. Sound familiar? They left at about 1:35 due to the heavy rain. So hard was the rain, Lawende claims in a Lloyds report, they "could not" leave the premises. This leaves me with a bunch of questions and a reason I started a thread on JTRforums to discuss this very scenario.

[Robert St Devil]

...which would have been just as good a reason for not saying anything c.d. a man considering the well-being of his family against Jack the Ripper may have been equally if not moreso considering the well-being of his family and community against the violent & evident antisemitism of the East End. Imagine following up 1887 a year when a Jew poured acid down a pregnant woman's throat with 1888 a year when [a Jew] horrifically butchered women on the streets of Whitechapel; would this have been enough to make a pogrom of the East End?

I am always reminded of that Peter Lorre 1931 classic M, of how the criminal decide to stage their own apprehension of the serial killer apart from the police. If it were that Jack The Ripper was witnessed to be a Jew, it might be better if the matter were handled in-house. A Jew may not have been willing to cooperate his confession with the police; then again, would there be a probability that he would seek counsel from Israel Lipski's confessor Rabbi Simeon Singer? Or any Jewish Rabbi for that matter??

*which also makes me question the probability of suspects like Patrick Differ theory. Levy may not have told the police but would he have said something to a rabbi?

[Mark J D]

... Given he is known to be leaving from a Jewish Socialist Club...

The Imperial [sic] in Duke's Place was ... a Jewish socialist club...?? Really...??

M.

[scottnapa]

Lawende is an interesting character. Turns out he became the witness Joseph Hyam Levy's best friend and they even retired living next to each other. Lawende was also an immigrant and my guess would be he became friends with Levy while frequenting the Club on Duke Street. They were in different professions and it could also be that Levy was Lawendes kosher butcher. Lawende said he could not identify the man with Eddowes and identified her by her clothing.

Levy was obstinate but inferred he knew something? What that meant is not clear but it is curious behavior.
Joseph Hyam Levy saw the couple first and said he didn't like going home with 'these characters about" and said he thought Mitre Square should be watched. But it was watched every 15 minutes plus a night watchman lived in the Square. It's a puzzling comment from someone who was a Duke Street Club member who knew about the 15 minute cadence. A known area for prostitutes to ply their trade he would have likely seen this act before ? The difference of that night however is that its during the Ripper murders. It makes you wonder why these 3 men did not say something. Why did these choose not to get involved other than not seeing a woman in distress?

I dont know Abby but I don't think Lawende was the real witness here as he said he couldn't identify the man. What would he witness to? It could be that it was the local guy JH Levy who was the actual witness and it could be Levy saw someone he knew. Why was he obstinate and what was he inferring? And Lawende could not identify him? Or if he could would he betray his best friend?. Levy as a local going on 47 years in that area between Mitre and Goulston would have likely known any local with Eddowes. My guess is that is what he knew. He just wasn't telling. Even if he was dragged in front of the suspect he would likely not turn them in. Imagine if it was his first cousin Jacob. Or someone else he knew.

I think much of the confusing dialogue is an attempt to distance himself for being involved in anything.
Guilty people do that and so do innocent people. Given he is known to be leaving from a Jewish Socialist Club, he will be framed by being a foreigner, Jewish, and an anarchist, It is not an easy path in life when many view him as a Christ killer who wants to overthrow the Queen.

i assume Eddowes was returning to the Bull Inn. Where no one knows her.

[c.d.]

That could certainly be true but would crimes like these constitute an exception especially when a Jewish man could have a mother, wife, sister or daughter who could be the next victim?

c.d.

[Robert St Devil]

Amongst some communities you just don't aid the police at all.

This comment coincided with a journal article that I recently read by Dr. Paul Knepper, who cited chillul hashem as a chief rationale for British Jews in late 19th Century London not bringing the criminal practice of prostitution and human trafficking by fellow Jews before the goyim (non Jewish world). Apparently, the purpose of this religious idea of chillul hashem evolved from a pure concept of "an evil act by a Jew was an insult to God" to> "an evil act by a Jew was a disgrace to the Jewish community" to> "don't snitch on your fellow Jew"... as though "snitching" was an evil act in of itself. Of course, it may have been a religious-political device put into general practice to protect the Anglo-Jewry community in London at large considering they were feeling the strains of antisemitism from all angles & they didn't need to add fuel to the fire by having Jews testify against each other to an already hostile establishment.

In the wake of the hostilities towards the East End Jewish community after Annie Chapman's murder, it leaves the question whether any Jew would have been willing to assist the constabulary come September 30th 1888.

Patrick Differ i'm not embracing your theory; however, if this trio of Jews did identify Catherine Eddowes' companion as a Jew (based on appearance), then it definitely spins the graffito as being written by a Jewish hand... that is, if you attribute the graffito with Jack the Ripper.

I will add this much: her post mortem indicated partly digested farinaceous food escaping from the cut end of her stomach. Considering that she had been imprisoned for four-and-a-half hours, I can only imagine that she must have been hungry & operating on an empty stomach upon leaving the police station and went in search of something to eat. I can't establish that the Salvation Army had a soup kitchen established on Houndsditch in late 1888, but i believe that i remember reading somewhere that there was one definitely present in early 1889. Either way, it seems that she had a few spoonfuls of something to eat from someplace.
But yes, I do agree with your assertions about St. Botolphs Church, and I wouldn't be surprised if she had meandered in that direction for illicit purposes.

*Strange how there is a whole cast of characters' voices missing from the casebook - bartenders, cooks, employees, &c. I mean, it's definite that Elizabeth Stride ate a dinner, but there is no record of anyone serving her.

[Simon Wood]

As there was no JtR, I say Eddowes is the key to the mystery because that is what I believe.

It has nothing to do with Lawende and Koz, nor any of the 300 or so named suspects.

[Patrick Differ]

Hi sean- Mitre Square was near St Botolphs which was referred to as the Prostitutes Church. Evidently it was an area of known traffic of these unfortunates. My though is Eddowes after sobering up in jail went looking for Doss money just as the Ripper went to the very same area for perhaps easy pickings or a quick hit so to speak. They were both looking for sex for money. Mitre Square would be a logical place to ply the trade in this area.
in terms of Anderson it's not clear to me that he or any of the Police knew who this killer was, who might have been the Suspect in Hove, or who that supposed witness was. If a suspect were in hand why was he not named? It makes little sense.
Joseph Hyam Levy, as Jacob Levys cousin would have known him by sight. He was 15 years older than Jacob and its doubtful they would travel in the same circles. The business at 36 Middlesex Street given to Jacob by Joseph Hyams mother Francis was a Legacy and in the family for close to 100 years.

imagine if Joseph upon learning the following morning when he gets a knock on his door by the Police that the woman he saw with Jacob was murdered and that Jacob was the Ripper. In less than 24 hours the Levy Family, we'll known in the community, would have been thrown into turmoil. The entire family and Jewish Community and as Charles Warren observed.. would have exploded! Was there a bigger reason for Joseph Hyam to not cooperate?

Jacob was a convicted lunatic in 1886 and insanity ran in his family. He was personally responsible for the loss of the Levy Family legacy at # 36. He was convicted of theft by his next door neighbor Hyman Sampson, a Polish Jew and immigrant who had previously lived at 56 Goulston Street before being displaced and moved next door to #35 Middlesex, to make way for Wentworth Buildings. The Board of Public Works basically put 2 Butchers, competitors, next to each other during a recession. What the hell were they thinking?

Joseph Hyam Levy had a relationship with a family named Kosminski. Polish Jewish immigrants as was Joseph Lawende. JH Levy was a charitable man with an estate of over 2000 pounds when he passed. This was one shrewd businessman who could have controlled the situation at hand.
What to do about Jacob and the affect on his family and the community? He would have been in tune to the murders.

What in fact did happen after Eddowes? The Police surged the area and drove the killer to ground for 6 weeks. JH Levy as a primary witness was tied up trying to avoid the Press, run a business, appear at inquests and possibly trying to figure out what to do about what he saw . There was much to lose if Jacob was the Ripper and were these Prostitutes worth it?

Before being given # 36 Middlesex Street by Frances Levy, Jacob and his young family lived at 11 Fieldgate Street not far from London Hospital. In the 1881 census he was there and in the 1884 timeframe moved to #36. Fieldgate happens to be halfway between Berner Street and Bucks Row. Jacob would have known his " previous" neighborhood and likely the slaughterers around the corner from Bucks Row.

SIx weeks after Eddowes and after the murder of Kelly there seems to be a series of unconnected events. The Jewish Butcher Theory, Hove, Kosminski and the closing of the case by the Police. This timeframe appears to be from 1888 to 1891.

There are too many coincidences for me that seem to tie back to the Levy Family of Middlesex Street. The locations of the crimes in proximity to Middlesex and Fieldgate Street, the professions, the Legacy, the associations with Goulston Street and Kosminski and the series of events in the years 1886 to 1891.

Would Anderson or any of the Police have any clue as to who this was and why a Polish Jew? Because of the word foriegner? And it happened to be Kosminski after the fact and after the really killer had died in 1891?

Edmund Reid is of interest to me as he thought all the Whitechapel Murders were by the same hand. A Street Cop no doubt. He said that he thought the killer was a local man who frequented a certain Public House and would get drunk and then get the urge to kill these women. He puts this in very simplistic terms. This also matches what Jacob Levys wife said about him when he was committed to Stone Asylum in August 1890. He had a fondness of beer he gained while incarcerated in the Essex Asylum from 86 to 87. Suffering from neurosyphillis just contributed more to his insanity. My guess is he was the Jewish Butcher that Sagar watched.

Why Hove? For the Sea Air for one thing as it was believed that Sea Air was a therapeutic for illnesses like syphillis and TB.
Why take a suspect there if they were in custody? Did someone take the suspect there for identification and is that when they decided to watch this Butcher? Someone they had to catch in the act to convict?

Just a theory of course. But there are too many coincidences to ignore.

[seanr]

Levy was obstinate but inferred he knew something? What that meant is not clear but it is curious behavior.

Yes, very odd.

Joseph Hyam Levy saw the couple first and said he didn't like going home with 'these characters about" and said he thought Mitre Square should be watched. But it was watched every 15 minutes plus a night watchman lived in the Square. It's a puzzling comment from someone who was a Duke Street Club member who knew about the 15 minute cadence.

"These characters" plural?
Yeah, he must have known about the night watchman and the fifteen minute beat. So, why insist on the place being watched?

A dark square with a tea warehouse, with its own watchman who was so unconcerned with danger that he'd leave the door open late at night and in the early hours of the morning. What could there possibly be to watch?

A known area for prostitutes to ply their trade he would have likely seen this act before ?

Why would sex workers ply their trade there though? The place was a quiet, empty corner of the East End. You'd think they'd be more interested in being close to places that'd be busy on a Saturday night and where people had money to spend. Yet, almost everyone insists this was a quiet spot. Make it make sense.

I dont know Abby but I don't think Lawende was the real witness here as he said he couldn't identify the man. What would he witness to? It could be that it was the local guy JH Levy who was the actual witness and it could be Levy saw someone he knew. Why was he obstinate and what was he inferring? And Lawende could not identify him? Or if he could would he betray his best friend?. Levy as a local going on 47 years in that area between Mitre and Goulston would have likely known any local with Eddowes. My guess is that is what he knew. He just wasn't telling. Even if he was dragged in front of the suspect he would likely not turn them in. Imagine if it was his first cousin Jacob. Or someone else he knew.

Amongst some communities you just don't aid the police at all. At this area just past the Aldgate Pump, there may have been some form of mob justice going on.

Joseph Hyam Levy recognising a man who he knew doesn't quite fit Anderson's claim, who said that on learning that the suspect was a fellow jew, he refused to testify to him. If the man was a local and known to Joseph, and certainly if it was his first cousin, he would already have known if the man was Jewish or not.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Herlock, thanks for that. Beer shops would seem a bit odd in todays world I guess.

Spooner (according to the Morning Advertiser) does say Beer Shop. I have done a little research and there was either a pub or beer shop called the Gloster Arms (Gloster seems to have been the spelling used) on the corner of Settles Street and Commercial Road. I think it was open until a few years ago.

I was just thinking about the route back that Spooner and his girl friend would have taken. Similar to the route Stride would have taken after being in the Bricklayers Arms a little further up Settles Street.

Timings are a bit different in that I think she and her partner leave the Bricklayers just after 11pm and Spooner leaves his beer shop at closing time. I am guessing 12pm. But I think it is safe to say that Stride would have walked past where Spooner was drinking on her way to Berner Street which is interesting I suppose.

Still thinking about this and probably on the wrong thread but it is the night of the double event and clues to what happened.

Not sure where this takes us

NW

The Beer shops were legally required to close by 10pm.

Whereas, a fully licenced pub was allowed to stay open until as late as 12.30am, although 11pm was the standard closing time for pubs.

Interestingly, the Nelson Beer House that stood on the corner of Berner Street would have been closed by 10pm.

However the pub further down Berner Street (heading towards Ellen Street) would have been open until anytime between 11pm-12.30am.
It was close to this pub that Marshall witnessed a man talking with a woman who may have been Liz Stride, shortly before the couple walked south and directly away from the murder site.

IIRC Marshall lived approximately half way between the pub (to his south) and the couple he saw (to his north) The couple walked towards and passed him, but there's no mention at which point he stops his observation of the couple.
I believe he went back inside his house just as the couple approached and he was gone by the time they passed him.
If that's the case, I'd bet the couple went into the pub just a few doors away from Marshall's location.

It's argued that the Marshall's couple weren't Stride and her killer because they were seen walking away from the murder scene.
However, there was time for them to go to the pub and then leave at closing time, and then head back north and up towards the murder site.

But nobody ever talks about that particular public house for whatever reason.

There were several pubs within a few minutes walk of the murder site, but the Nelson Beer House on the corner would have been closed by 10pm.

Intesretingly there was a shop on the corner of Ellen Street that sold such items that would almost certainly have included Cachou.

This shop was virtually opposite 22 Ellen Street; the address given by Schwartz.

The enigmatic phantom that he was, and has remained.

Perhaps that's where Stride purchased the Cachou, before heading back to the murder site with her killer.

[New Waterloo]

Hi Herlock, thanks for that. Beer shops would seem a bit odd in todays world I guess.

Spooner (according to the Morning Advertiser) does say Beer Shop. I have done a little research and there was either a pub or beer shop called the Gloster Arms (Gloster seems to have been the spelling used) on the corner of Settles Street and Commercial Road. I think it was open until a few years ago.

I was just thinking about the route back that Spooner and his girl friend would have taken. Similar to the route Stride would have taken after being in the Bricklayers Arms a little further up Settles Street.

Timings are a bit different in that I think she and her partner leave the Bricklayers just after 11pm and Spooner leaves his beer shop at closing time. I am guessing 12pm. But I think it is safe to say that Stride would have walked past where Spooner was drinking on her way to Berner Street which is interesting I suppose.

Still thinking about this and probably on the wrong thread but it is the night of the double event and clues to what happened.

Not sure where this takes us

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

In the Morning Advertiser 3rd oct Spooner says that he was in a beer shop corner of settles street commercial road. Only a few yards from the Bricklayers arms on settles street where Best and Gardner were drinking. Not sure what beer shop on settles street spooner was in but if it was the Bricklayers that would be something! Dont think so. Any ideas anyone please

NW

Hi NW,

My apologies if I’m telling you something that you already know but Public Houses and Beer Shops were different things. Beer shops could only sell beer and not spirits, had different opening/closing times and were governed by a different body (if memory serves)

[Patrick Differ]

id venture it has to do with the witness lawende and koz?

Lawende is an interesting character. Turns out he became the witness Joseph Hyam Levy's best friend and they even retired living next to each other. Lawende was also an immigrant and my guess would be he became friends with Levy while frequenting the Club on Duke Street. They were in different professions and it could also be that Levy was Lawendes kosher butcher. Lawende said he could not identify the man with Eddowes and identified her by her clothing.

Levy was obstinate but inferred he knew something? What that meant is not clear but it is curious behavior.
Joseph Hyam Levy saw the couple first and said he didn't like going home with 'these characters about" and said he thought Mitre Square should be watched. But it was watched every 15 minutes plus a night watchman lived in the Square. It's a puzzling comment from someone who was a Duke Street Club member who knew about the 15 minute cadence. A known area for prostitutes to ply their trade he would have likely seen this act before ? The difference of that night however is that its during the Ripper murders. It makes you wonder why these 3 men did not say something. Why did these choose not to get involved other than not seeing a woman in distress?

I dont know Abby but I don't think Lawende was the real witness here as he said he couldn't identify the man. What would he witness to? It could be that it was the local guy JH Levy who was the actual witness and it could be Levy saw someone he knew. Why was he obstinate and what was he inferring? And Lawende could not identify him? Or if he could would he betray his best friend?. Levy as a local going on 47 years in that area between Mitre and Goulston would have likely known any local with Eddowes. My guess is that is what he knew. He just wasn't telling. Even if he was dragged in front of the suspect he would likely not turn them in. Imagine if it was his first cousin Jacob. Or someone else he knew.

[Abby Normal]

Fine, I’ll bite. Why would you say this?

id venture it has to do with the witness lawende and koz?